When To Act?

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Fred Fuller

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The latest update to Farnam's Quips, Quotes and Lessons Learned (http://www.defense-training.com/quips/quips.html) brings us this tidbit, which is in line with some recent threads here.

lpl
===========================

http://www.defense-training.com/quips/28Mar10.html

When to Act?
28 Mar 10

During early-morning hours, in a hotel lobby in TN last week, a police officer who was armed, but not in uniform, was confronted by three masked, armed, robbery suspects.

The robbery was already in progress when the unsuspecting officer walked in on the scene!

At gunpoint, the officer was confronted and ordered to prone-out on the floor. All three suspects, although only in their 20s, were already multiply-convicted, violent, career criminals.

The officer, started to comply, but then suddenly drew his pistol and fired, striking all three astonished suspects. The injured trio immediately fled, but were apprehended shortly thereafter. Two are 'critical," one " stable." The officer was not injured, nor were any other innocent parties at the scene. Not one of the suspects ever fired a shot!

This question comes up often: When thus confronted at gunpoint, or, when a VCA is in the process of taking a family-member hostage, how long do I wait before taking unilateral action?

The answer is, as always: It's your call!

But, here are some things to consider:

Your attackers are at their weakest and most disorganized at the beginning of the ordeal. As the confrontation goes on, they will increase their control, as your options dry up, one by one. When you assume the posture they demand, allow them to search you, allow them to tie you up, et al, in the end you'll have no options. Likewise, when you allow them to escape with a family member under their control, you'll likely never see that family member alive again!

A student says, "... when someone has me at gunpoint, if I move, they'll likely shoot!"

There is no satisfactory, nor comfortable answer to that. All I can say in reply is, "You're dead anyway!"

When you act with precise, but overwhelming, force, you may yet prevail. When you dither, there is little hope for your survival.

Everyone wants the "no-risk" solution. This is fantasy! There is no such thing. "Doing nothing" is never risk-free, nor is any other solution you 're contemplating.

The officer in the case dared boldly, and he snatched a stunning victory from the jaws of certain death.

Good show!

The rest of need to think about it. As I've made it a habit of saying, your Test is coming!

Who are not armed, trained, ready, and courageously prepared to act decisively, right now, have surrendered most of their options before the fight even starts!

/John
 
Thanks, Lee! Good post.

Your attackers are at their weakest and most disorganized at the beginning of the ordeal.

The educational texts for Army SERE also stress this; The point of capture is the best chance of escape you will have. After removing you from this point of capture, the control of the captors only increases. Second best is transportation away from the scene. Once you get where you're going, however, chances of escape are much less likely.

Similarly, the points of vulnaribility for avoiding trouble with criminals are 1) Seeing it and getting away or preventing it immediately OR 2) Take action as it starts, because it's not going to get any easier if the guys are half-decent at what they do and have deadly intentions.
 
NO action I EVER take in a self-defense situation will be premised on the good judgment or basic decency of an armed assailant. If you unlawfully point a firearm at me, my assumption is that you intend at some point to use it.

Based on that premise, my plan is to use deadly force against you to prevent that, preferably at an unexpected time, in an unexpected way and with the utmost force and violence.

Criminals, except those who knowingly confront other criminals have come to expect meek submission. This expectation has been reinforced by society, including the media and law enforcement which both incessantly counsel the public to put their lives in the hands of violent criminals and to trust to their better nature. Those of us who contemptuously reject this "advice" benefit from a lack of expectation of resistance on the part of our would-be victimizers.
 
This very type of situation has always made me wonder exactly what I would do in a similiar scenario.
First this type of thing has happened over the years to members of our city/county police force members who were armed but out of uniform and confronted in a robbery similiar to this and many times one of these cops did the fast reaction and shot or killed the perp.
I have heard,although I dont know how much truth there is to it, that other officers would look down on a fellow lawman if he allowed himself to be disarmed by these types without putting up a fight.
However we all know we only have one life so that's a call that only that person can make.
There are other factors to weigh as well.
If you go for your gun as he did would other innocent people be killed?
What if your wife or child were with you would you then try it?
I guess it really all depends what level of threat and bad vibes the perps were putting off for some.
Others may very well say "Damn the torpedos,full speed ahead".
This would be a very touchy situation if you were out numbered and they already had the drop on you.
Glad the cop won out.
 
Always case by case. But I concur with the OP and others that acting swiftly and decisively would be the best option in most instances. But yet again, I can think of a great many hypothetical situations in which waiting for the best opportunity to act is preferable. Waiting for or creating a distraction, for example. Just depends on the nature of the incident. And drawing and firing may not be the best first move. If the aggressor is at contact distance, striking him and/or disarming may be the optimal course of action. You just need to be able to follow through with your action before he can react. At .26 seconds, my hand-eye reaction time is pretty good, but alot can happen in a quarter of a second, and someone who knows what they're doing can easily clear the muzzle before I can drop hammer. It's been practiced with airsoft.
 
Great post.

On here there is many posts saying they would not act in a mere robbery of someone else or a store unless it became obvious the criminals might become lethal.
Like they would take action or start fighting back if ordered to the back room or freezer etc.

Clearly wanting to wait until the last possible moment when they are backed into a corner and realize they must fight back for survival.


But reality does not often work that way. By the time someone realizes they may need to fight for their lives after complying the criminals have typically gained control over the situation.
Acting at that point is much less likely to result in success when they have people where they want them or know about and have established their fields of view to cover everyone.


They may also stop and pat you down at gunpoint, either for weapons or valuables at some point. Which means you may very well be disarmed later on, or even shot immediately when the gun is felt on your person or you go for it at that point.


Of course acting immediately in the face of overwhelming odds may work against you too.
But the decision to wait until the last possible moment, when the criminals have gained complete control and have settled on a course of action themselves may be too late.

So it is a judgment call.
 
heres a guy

http://fredericksburg.com/News/Web/2...oshootingvideo

who clanks when he walks and who was in the hospital less than 24 hours after being shot

Wow. He did good. Stealth, snuck up, and delivered a full power hit to the back of his head.
Unfortunately even when one acts well they sometimes get hurt or die.
The action cannot always be judged based on the outcome, because sometimes the best action with limited options available has a less than perfect outcome.

Must have been poor beer bottle construction.
They just don't make them like they used to. A full champagne bottle would have probably done better and delivered more force before breaking, because they have to contain higher pressures.
The bottom edge of the bottle also can deliver the hardest blow without breaking, not the side of the bottle.
But sneaking up on a guy armed with a gun and delivering a solid hit to the head before being noticed is pretty impressive. It is just a shame it did not knock him out.

'What bottle' for defense? :neener:
 
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hes shot four times and standing up bleeding i though he was gonna chase the lowlife outside and hes in his 60's . hes from md but his moneys no good here in va right now. until they catch the shooter they are keeping his id secret
 
Too bad the old man didn't have a gun himself. I'm sure he thought he would knock out the bg. That's not a bet I'd be willing to take.

+1 to the wine bottle. I don't think he'd get up from being hit with some cheap wine, as long as it didn't come from a box. :neener:



In response to the situation originally presented by the OP, I don't plan on complying, at least not for long. I would rather die fighting back than being shot in the head while proned out on the floor.
 
On the origanal post by Lee L., I've been saying for many posts the best defence is attack. That short period of surprise is an advantage if used. Three BG's is a lot but To die taking action is much better than dieing as a helpless victim. Knowing your own capibilties is the most important thing. The confidence that you can draw and hit three target's has to be earned through practice, mindset and agressive and effective training.
BZ for the off duty LEO.
As I expected several people wants to read something not included into scenerio. waiting to see what happens or worrying about buystandards does nothing but increase the number of victims. BG are being trained in jail and in their gang invironment that leaving witnesses is one more person to discribe them or testify at trial. These comfrontations are a given deadly event. Swift emmediate actiion is the most survivable situation. Are you a victim or a man of action in the face of fear. Please don't wait till it happens too make up your mind.
 
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Good post. Your point stresses the need to be aware and prepared in order to take advantage of the BG being the most vulnerable. If you're not prepared for that first point of contact, you wouldn't be able to capitalize on the advantage.

Unfortunately, it makes the shoot/no shoot decision more difficult since it needs to be almost instantaneous. If you see a gun, fine, but what if you don't. I guess you roll the dice?
 
Ultimately, it varies from situation to situation. Here's the problem: if the robber catches you unaware and has the drop on you, often the best choice is to comply and wait for an opportunity to strike. Or at least act like you're complying, as this officer did. If the person thinks you're not a major threat, he's going to make mistakes. Sometimes playing the part of the compliant victim is the right answer.
 
Hello friends and neighbors // I can think of no situation where surrendering my firearm would help me, complying (lying down) would be just as good as giving up my weapon.

This type of scenerio if approached is where the weak hand can be used to disable a revolver by grabbing the cylinder or to force a BGs semiauto out of battery while you draw. IF you know how and are willing to close with the BG while they think you are unaware. Even shoving the web between your thumb and index finger in front of the hammer or your little finger behind the trigger will disable a firearm. Sneezing is always associated with a fast movement and might give you and extra edge just before the grab.

The only thing passing thru my mind other than WIN would be " Lord don't let me screw up". I remember one of our Astronauts saying this in a tight spot.
Can't hurt.
 
Reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from my hand to hand combat instructors: "If you think you are about to be in a violent situation; make it violent!"
 
Years ago when I was robbed at gunpoint, in the early stages of the robbery I'm positive had either I or the friend that was with me would have reacted the robber would have been in for a world of hurt (my friend is a big guy who at the time was lifting weights 8 hours a day when he wasn't moving pianos and safes for his dad's moving company ... plus said friend is a borderline psychotic who really doesn't like black people).

The robber drew his tiny little .25, pointed it in a safe direction while he racked the slide and eventually put the gun to the head of my friend.

Had I tackled the guy the instant I recognized the gun the robber would have been unsuccessful (and probably hospitalized if not outright killed by my friend).

But I froze ... I remember thinking "Is that a gun? No, certainly that's not a gun ... certainly I'm not about to be robbed ... yep, its a gun ... wow I can't believe I'm actually being robbed ... this sucks!"

Anyway that robbery is one of the reasons I carry today. If it happened today I'd have front sight on center mass before he could get a round in the gun (of course I realize if I'm ever robbed again the chances of it going down the same way are slim).
 
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