rogerjames
member
I never said that I do anything because somebody else does it... Are we reading the same posts?
Your gun rights vs the right of business owners...
- Thread starter rellascout
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rellascout
member
Oh I get it...
rellascout
member
No but you are clearly using the actions of others, which are violations of a property owners rights to justify your actions.....
Did you not state this:
We all no that criminals don't follow signs or laws, so simply "not allowing" it on one's private property is simply "not allowing" it for those willing to obey that law or sign, thus... protecting nobody and preventing nothing. Again, the same reason that "gun laws" have been proven over, and over, and over again to have NO affect on preventing violent crime.
rogerjames
member
"It's just a gun it does not define you as a human being. Don't make a bigger deal out of it then it needs to be. It just a tool."
rellascout
member
Correct a tool which some property owners have told you not to bring on to their property which you choose to ignore because our arrogantly presume your rights trump their.
rogerjames
member
No. I am using your inability to prevent the actions of others, which may be a violation of your property rights, to justify my actions.
rellascout
member
There is no democracy on private property. When you are on my property you do not get a vote. Comply or leave. If you do not leave prepare to be arrested or shot....
That may be the case in your State. Its not the case in ALL States.
If I own private property and tell you "you may not enter while carrying" and you step onto my land, I might deem that a threat,
Otherwise, In many states, once you are told you must leave, and you refuse, you are guilty of trespass. Which is breaking the law.
I think its simple, Any one can set their own rules on their property. I can set my rules to avoid their property. Its easy.
rellascout
member
Question rodger if you enter my posted property ignoring my sign forbidding concealed carry on my property am I justified in shooting you if I see the weapon?
If you have ignored my posted sign is it reasonable to conclude you are a law breaker and you are armed on my property in order to commit a crime or do harm?
That is the essence of the castle doctrine. If I have not authorized your presence on my property with a weapon are you or are you not carrying at your own peril? Does the property owner have the right to shot you as soon as they see the weapon because you are a threat who is violating the wishes and rules of the property owner?
If you have ignored my posted sign is it reasonable to conclude you are a law breaker and you are armed on my property in order to commit a crime or do harm?
That is the essence of the castle doctrine. If I have not authorized your presence on my property with a weapon are you or are you not carrying at your own peril? Does the property owner have the right to shot you as soon as they see the weapon because you are a threat who is violating the wishes and rules of the property owner?
rogerjames
member
That presumes that you know I am carrying and that you have asked me to leave. How do you presume to know that? And if you did, I would gladly comply... but you won't, so it's a mute point.
rellascout
member
+1 Well stated!
rellascout
member
Clearly you have not respect for the rights of property owners....
If I have posted my property and I discover that you are carrying am I justified in shooting you on sight if at anytime you become uncovered? I can only assume that someone who ignored the posting is here to do me harm.
Howe am I to know the difference between you, who claim to be a law abiding concealed carrier and someone who is on my property to do me harm?
Can anybody in Carolina give a definitive answer?
I still don’t see from the law referenced that it means the sign carries the weight of the law-it sounds like you could be asked to leave, and if you don’t, then the legal stuff kicks in (like VA)? I’ve asked/dug around the ‘Net on a few occasions and found no definitive answer to this one.
I'm sure VA also has a similar law, but the signs mean little/nothing in VA-if you're caught and asked to leave, then trespassing can kick in, but it's not a weapons violation.
Think I mentioned in an earlier thread-since I spend a fair amount of time in NC, I was doing a little investigating regarding postings etc.
Four Seasons Mall in Greensboro has a “no weapons etc” sign located ‘bout 25 feet inside the mall entrance (have to break mall policy to learn mall policy!), and the weapons notice is the last one on the large board of mall rules-right at floor level. I couldn’t read it without bending way over (conspicuous?). I think most folks enter through anchor stores since the notice is not posted at them-seems to be at the mall entrance(s?) proper only?
It’s been a while, but I think the notice at Four Seasons said something to the effect of you could be prosecuted for trespassing? Been a long time, but I was curious to see how it compared to VA law-the word “trespassing” kinda jumped out at me-kinda made me think you wouldn’t be automatically arrested and/or convicted by ignoring the sign?
I think it was Northgate Mall in Durham that has a no weapons notice-it’s on it’s own sticker located at an entrance window, but it also is located at ground level, although easier to read than Four Seasons.
I still don’t see from the law referenced that it means the sign carries the weight of the law-it sounds like you could be asked to leave, and if you don’t, then the legal stuff kicks in (like VA)? I’ve asked/dug around the ‘Net on a few occasions and found no definitive answer to this one.
I'm sure VA also has a similar law, but the signs mean little/nothing in VA-if you're caught and asked to leave, then trespassing can kick in, but it's not a weapons violation.
Think I mentioned in an earlier thread-since I spend a fair amount of time in NC, I was doing a little investigating regarding postings etc.
Four Seasons Mall in Greensboro has a “no weapons etc” sign located ‘bout 25 feet inside the mall entrance (have to break mall policy to learn mall policy!), and the weapons notice is the last one on the large board of mall rules-right at floor level. I couldn’t read it without bending way over (conspicuous?). I think most folks enter through anchor stores since the notice is not posted at them-seems to be at the mall entrance(s?) proper only?
It’s been a while, but I think the notice at Four Seasons said something to the effect of you could be prosecuted for trespassing? Been a long time, but I was curious to see how it compared to VA law-the word “trespassing” kinda jumped out at me-kinda made me think you wouldn’t be automatically arrested and/or convicted by ignoring the sign?
I think it was Northgate Mall in Durham that has a no weapons notice-it’s on it’s own sticker located at an entrance window, but it also is located at ground level, although easier to read than Four Seasons.
rogerjames
member
How would you know I am not an undercover detective? Have fun in hell without the chance of parlole
rellascout
member
When you have no rational or logical response resorting to a straw man appears to be your only hope?
Are you a undercover detective? If not I am going to have a pretty good justification defense for detaining if not shooting you on my posted property.
rellascout
member
I tend to agree but the property owner you are violating might not.
Does it warrant me drawing on you ordering you to the ground and disarming you?
rogerjames
member
You obviously should not be carrying a gun because you obviously do not understand the requirements for use of deadly force. Hint, hint, choosing to ignore your self-imposed property policies is not one of them.
You have no idea what I do for a living. That person that you observe carrying on your property could very easily be an off-duty police officer, a plain clothes detective, etc, etc, etc. The fact that you seem willing to shoot somebody if you happen to observe a concealed weapon, suggests that you should probably follow your own rules and keep your weapon off the property, to avoid subjecting yourself to a future of misery.
rellascout
member
Roger you are not answering the question.... are you an undercover cop? If not your argument is strawman and invalid on its face. It is a poor attempt to deflect. Those with any skill in logical debate can see you are grasping at straws. LOL
Even worse you feel the need to use an ad hominem attack. Nothing I have said would disqualify me from being able to carry a concealed handgun in the state I reside in. Also as the property or business owner having a gun on my property does not constitute carrying, again in my state of residence. I do not need a CHP permit to have a loaded weapon at the ready in my place of business if I am the owner or if I am in my home
The fact you are not answering the question tells me all I need to know.
Even worse you feel the need to use an ad hominem attack. Nothing I have said would disqualify me from being able to carry a concealed handgun in the state I reside in. Also as the property or business owner having a gun on my property does not constitute carrying, again in my state of residence. I do not need a CHP permit to have a loaded weapon at the ready in my place of business if I am the owner or if I am in my home
The fact you are not answering the question tells me all I need to know.
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BCC
Member
I wouldn't carry anywhere posted. I also wouldn't boycott businesses that post. I vote....with my vote. But heck, even then I'm not a single issue guy.
I respect that business owners might not share my passion for guns, dirt bikes (now there's something restricted) or other hobbies of mine. And in fact, businesses might support causes or hobbies I don't like. However if they provide quality merchandise, great service, good prices & ethical behaviour, they get my support (my shopping at REI & their support of dirtbike hating Sierra Club comes to mind). I try to leave my pet issues for the internet or maybe the ballot box.
I respect that business owners might not share my passion for guns, dirt bikes (now there's something restricted) or other hobbies of mine. And in fact, businesses might support causes or hobbies I don't like. However if they provide quality merchandise, great service, good prices & ethical behaviour, they get my support (my shopping at REI & their support of dirtbike hating Sierra Club comes to mind). I try to leave my pet issues for the internet or maybe the ballot box.
rellascout
member
I can respect that viewpoint. There is often more than one issue in play when we make consumer choices.
rogerjames
member
YOU are not answering the question and YOU are the one with a poor attempt to deflect the issue. If I am an undercover cop or not is irrelevant! The question was... how do you know I'm NOT? You are the one threatening to shoot somebody at the mere sight of a weapon on your property. It is YOUR responsibility to know who and why you are shooting. And you STILL haven't answered that question!
This has turned to generating more heat than light.
If folks want to bicker they can take it to PMs.
If folks want to bicker they can take it to PMs.
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