How to deal with store robbery as a 3rd party CCW

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Draw and be ready. That is it. If trouble comes your way, handle it as the situation dictates.

Don't be a hero unless there is zero possibility of innocent people getting hurt.

Your actions might well save a life, but it could also escalate the situation to a point where a bystander might get hurt as a result of you actions.
 
i would draw and give verbal commands to drop the weapon. while giving the commands i would do my best to have a clear shot with a safe backstop. if the gunmen didn't comply i would stop the threat.

giving verbal commands while armed is sure to distract the gunmen, i seriously doubt he would continue to point the gun at someone else when there is another party who is armed and telling him to stop. if he continued pointing the gun at someone else ie: the clerk then i would be justified in using force.

i understand that everybody wants to exhaust all possibilities before using lethal force, but in this kind of scenario it is not the most prudent imho. the bg isn't going to announce that he is about to start killing people, often times the bg will shoot even after everybody has complied with all his demands.

if the person having the gun pointed at them was a family member people wouldn't hesitate to stop the threat, we wouldn't take a chance of leaving their lives in the hands of an armed robber. otoh if it's a perfect stranger we should wait and see if the bg is going to start dropping people before we should act...i mean after all it's not MY family member and it's not MY money.
 
No one has mentioned situational awarness.
Is the guy really threatening the Clerk or in other words do you sense he may shoot just for SAG to see what its like. Not a week goes by we don't see some scum bag shoot some innocent clerk on video and walk away.
The SA comes in because you have to know where all the other customers are and deside if you might need to engage one after BG. I think that the moral and right thing to do is 1. Draw, 2. Call 911 and lay down phone after giving vitals so operator heres everything, 3. Cause a distraction to draw attention away from clerk, 4. Lock Bg up in sights and announce yourself, after he responds to distraction if he moves at all turn out the lights before he can get his muzzle pointed at someone else. 5. Stay tactical until your sure all others are by standers. Tell other customers to get on floor and stay till LEO's arrive which will make it easier to reconstruct scene and show who could and could not have seen anything.
At that point pick up your phone tell operator that a shooting has taken place and discribe yourself for first responders but keep control of site and no one leaves.
Be prepared for histerics or medical/panic attacks and maybe other BG's coming in. These are all situation awareness variables which we think of and plan responses to. I'f your in a store just think what if and game it in your head with all kinds of different situations. That cell phone is my second self defense weapon don't leave home without it.
Don't embelish your statement. A lot of people get themselves in trouble after the shooting with there mouth running overtime. If the LEO's are the least bit judgmental Lawyer Up and shut up till he arrives.
 
Why on earth would you want to draw attention to yourself!?!?!?

and...

Situational awareness was implied, I'm sure.
 
There is a lot going on here for which we cannot plan - who is standing where, how jacked up or focused and controlled the BG is, what's behind your lines of fire - it can be a long list and these variables will affect your decision. And it will never play out as you have anticipated.

As many have pointed out, you must be aware of WHY you carry that weapon. Are you a Don Quixote? Are you being guided by an idealized memory of the heroes of TV shows and movies? Or are you just some guy who wants an edge of some sort in a lethal confrontation?

I carried weapons long ago in a supremely dangerous situation but one in which the rules of engagement were more clearly defined. The overall situation for me today is much less dangerous in terms of facing a physical threat, but much more dangerous in terms of hazy at best rules of engagement and the potential aftermath of my decision. I know that, unlike Clint, after blowing away the BGs I will not be holstering my weapon and continuing my day.

Consequently, I have become familiar with my rights and responsibilities with respect to carrying a weapon in my state and in nearby reciprocating states. I place the walking into a robbery scenario within that context and will let my actions at that time be molded by the situation as it presents. I suspect that whatever happens in that event, my day will NOT be made.
 
KodiakBeer said:
If you shoot him, what are the odds he shoots the poor clerk out of reflex or surprise?
Well, I couldn't put numbers on it, but those odds are pretty low.
In case you had forgotten, shooting a handgun is pretty challenging and uses a lot of muscles just to keep on target. You and I practice regularly (I assume) and even competition-level shooters work to reduce the effect their trigger pull has on aim ... so the "shoot someone and they automatically put a round on target perfectly" is pretty suspect and I've written it off as Hollywood BS.

Lee Lapin said:
As long as it's only a matter of cash register money,
If you can tell for sure then of course let the non-violent crime take place and be the best witness you can.
But when in doubt, that's a lot of faith to put into some scumburger ... I'm not about to trust their altruism, exact actions would depend on circumstances but I do know that some idiot waving a gun about is presenting a deadly threat to myself and others ... and I do know that I'm not willing to wait around to be a victim of that idiot's little rage-fantasy.
 
What would be the legal ramifications of this.

Say you're in the aforementioned scenario, and the robber failed to secure the room, and is not paying any attention to you. He's pointing his gun at the clerk, and you have a clear shot at his back, but at an angle that does not endanger the clerk, or others, from an overpenetration/near miss. In short, you have the opportunity to end this, if you shoot him in the back. Now what do you do, or is this option even legal?
 
I believe I would try to make myself "invisible", blend in with the soda display and draw my weapon while hitting 911 on my cell phone if possible.

I would then try to move over to the Doritos rack and position myself to take action if it appears the perp is going overboard and isn't in a "grab it and run" mode.

If need be, take the shot with no warning, the perp already set the stage.

If its a grab and run I would try to be a good witness.

If it appeared at the onset that this was going to be a violent encounter (pistol whip the clerk or a customer for example) then I would take the first opportunity to draw and fire, again with no warning.

Until that day comes this is all speculation on my part.

I do believe that in the situation mentioned no warning is necessary, I'm not interested in a fair fight.
 
That warning could be the difference between you being the hero, or you being the fellow prisoner.

But don't let that little detail bother you. ;)
 
i would draw and give verbal commands to drop the weapon. while giving the commands i would do my best to have a clear shot with a safe backstop. if the gunmen didn't comply i would stop the threat.
...or be shot by the other perp.
 
Like most here, I would draw my firearm and move to a better shot angle keeping in mind others in the store and the clerk getting robbed. How I would react really depends on many factors but I can tell you this...If I am going to shoot to stop the threat, I am going to do so without any warning whatsoever. Kinda like how I was raised in regards to fights. Never trash talk, just act or react. The one talking usually gets the losing end of the stick.
 
A lot of what ifs ...

I work retail and I would hate to be in a Mexican standoff.

I would run out of the store; if impeded to do so, that is a different scenario.
 
Posts like this split this forum. Always have, always will.

You have two distinct groups, the group that says shoot and the group that says observe and report. These posts cause agruement because something very, very important is always forgotten:

My "High Road" is probably different than your "High Road". And please don't try and tell me mine is wrong simply because it contradicts yours.

I was raised different than you. I was raised in a different town, a different environment and by different parents. My decision on how to react on this situation and any situation is based first upon my states laws, then safety, then morals. My laws are different than yours, and my morals are different than yours.

Before this thread devolves into the usual arguement and then locked please take this all into consideration.

I'm not you. You're not me.

Now, in this situation my state's laws say that I can help a person who's life is in danger. Many of you have said that most criminals only use the gun for intimidation. What would you do if he was pointing the gun at you? Would you not act simply because he's just trying to intimidate you? No, you would not. I hold the clerk to that same standard.

I don't feel I have a duty to protect everyone. I don't have a "cop complex". What I have is a set of beliefs and morals that were ingrained into me by my family and by 8 years of military service. You help people that need help. You leave places better than you found them. You protect those that need protected. You are not a sheep. You will not die on your knees nor will you let someone else suffer the same.

I can live with having to stop someone threatening myself, my family or another person. What I can't live with is knowing someone died because I had the tools, the training and the mindset to act yet chose not to.
 
If it's a "grab-n-run", isn't it going to be over before you can react anyway? So don't worry about that.

I like how Bickle gets the bad guy's attention (he softly says "hey, hey", or something like that) then shoots him in the head as he swings around. That gets the gun off the clerk, and makes it easier to argue that *your* life was in danger too (if you live in someplace hostile toward self-defense, like maybe Boston or NYC)

Did anybody watch that video I posted of the old man who tries to clean the robber's clock with a beer bottle? How could he have handled that better? Let's say he (old guy) had a knife; how best to utilize it from behind?
 
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I don't understand the people that would give a verbal warning. If you really can not tell whether or not you should shoot, maybe you should. However, I think most of the time there would be at least some indication of whether this is going to be a grab and run or if it's going to get violent.

If it's not going to be violent, you can make your choice, based on the law. Every encounter has a chance of turning violent, and the next time it could be your wife or children when the guy goes off.

If it seems it's going to get violent, there's no reason to talk with the guy. You put one bullet in the back of his head and wait for the police (keeping an eye out for anyone else who might have negative feelings about your actions). If you open your mouth, you are likely to give him time to move, and then instead of a defensible shooting you have a gunfight. How many people might get hurt in that?
 
Ok so my post got deleted by the mods for some reason.

Yes, it did. You're talking about killing someone, or trying to. There is simply no reason to post anything here in that sort of discussion that requires a disclaimer of ".... Just kidding." It should be enough to note that someone on staff found it necessary to delete something you posted, calling attention to that on an open thread might not be something you want to make a habit of doing in the future. The least severe form of reproof we have is deleting a post. From there on out it gets worse. Normally staff won't even address such things in an open thread, but since we have had such an epidemic of butt-hurt here lately, I decided perhaps some more explanation might be in order. You might note in the rules for S&T that we have a warning against blood lust too, while you're at it...

lpl


So I'll just say:
shoot the robber.
 
Well, I couldn't put numbers on it, but those odds are pretty low.
In case you had forgotten, shooting a handgun is pretty challenging and uses a lot of muscles just to keep on target.

You may think so, but the gun is within a foot or two of the target. There's no indication in the OP about what kind of handgun it is, or if you can even see it clearly from where you are. But, worst case, a single action pull from an already tensed trigger finger on a target a foot or two from the muzzle - hell, you could probably get the clerk shot by shouting "Boo"!

In my opinion, if you're going to engage, do it when another persons life isn't at stake. I wouldn't have much of an issue with shooting an armed robber, but in this situation, he's got a gun pointed at a 3rd person and I'd wait.
 
Draw and be ready. That is it. If trouble comes your way, handle it as the situation dictates.

Don't be a hero unless there is zero possibility of innocent people getting hurt.

Your actions might well save a life, but it could also escalate the situation to a point where a bystander might get hurt as a result of you actions.

^This. You're not a cop, you have no legal right or obligation to use deadly force on a criminal just because he's committing a crime. Just quietly draw your pistol and hold it alongside your leg, out of sight and at the ready. The first rule of survival is to CYA, and protecting yourself from possible legal consequences for your actions definitely counts!

IF he threatens YOU, or it becomes apparent that he's going to harm the clerk or someone else, then by all means act to defend yourself and the others. If he's just after the money and a quick exit, your best bet is to remain silent and be a witness.

Trying to be a hero because "fighting crime is the right thing to do" is absolutely stupid. You HAVE to think of your own life and what your actions will do to you and your family. What good will it do to you and your family if you get injured, killed or imprisoned because your ego told you to "get that maggot and take him off the street"? You really want your kids to have to tell people "daddy's in prison for killing someone, but he's a hero because he took on a robber. But we're barely making it, struggling to survive while he's in jail. I'm proud of him, but we're hungry and wish he were here for us." How would that make you feel?

Bottom line....the store's insured for their losses. If the robber doesn't appear ready and willing to hurt anyone, let him go. Don't ruin your life and the lives of your family just for the sake of being a hero. That's NOT what your permit and pistol are all about.

And FWIW, I was in that very situation once, but wasn't armed. I was in a store when it was robbed. Both of the clerks were between me and the robber, so I couldn't have acted anyway, and it was over very quickly. He took the money and a 6-pack and hauled ass.
 
Is the clerk your kin?

Does the money in the till belong to you?

Do you feel like handing over all your worldly possessions to the goon's lawyer?

Do you feel like having several feet of your innards removed?


No?

Well, there you go.
 
You're not a cop, you have no legal right or obligation to use deadly force on a criminal just because he's committing a crime.

Ok. I have a question concerning this statement.

Why are there many states that allow you to use deadly force to stop the commision of certain felony crimes and to prevent serious bodily harm against SOMEONE ELSE?

It's not about stopping crime. It's not about being a wanna be cop. It's about preserving the life of an innocent fellow man.
 
I'm expecting you guys to educate me on why this is a really bad idea.

Murder or manslaughter conviction for killing someone that wasn't a clear and immediate threat to you followed by conviction on the charges or some lesser felony followed by prison and loss of rights.

We shoot when there's a real threat to someone's life and not to "clean up" society. Determining what a "real threat to someone's life" is can be difficult, but that's always the question of whether taking someone's life is justifiable or not.

One thing that everyone needs to keep in mind is that due to modern EMS response the greater percentage of shooting victims survive with only a small percentage suffering permanently debilitating wounds.
 
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Quote:.......Is the clerk your kin?
Does the money in the till belong to you?
Do you feel like handing over all your worldly possessions to the goon's lawyer?
Do you feel like having several feet of your innards removed?

No?
Well, there you go.


+1000
 
We shoot when there's a real threat to someone's life and not to "clean up" society. Determining what a "real threat to someone's life" is can be difficult, but that's always the question of whether taking someone's life is justifiable or not.

Determining a 'real threat to someone's life' can be difficult, but I don't see how it is in this situation.

A gun drawn in aggression seems pretty straightforward as a real threat to someone's life. I don't care to play psychiatrist and determine whether he really means to kill the clerk or not. If the gun is out and pointed at someone in aggression, the case is closed, IMHO.

There are plenty of scenarios, though, when the angle would be bad, or the distance too great, that would cause me to simply draw and be ready, but if the shot is there - by golly I'm taking it.

What's worse than prosecutors, lawyer fees, and jail time from a crazy judicial system? A dead clerk when I had a clean shot at the BG and didn't do anything because saving him would cause me too much trouble.

It's legal in my state to defend someone else with the same force they could legally use in their own defense. But if I got railroaded, then that sucks for me. The good Lord, and my church, and my extended family will take care of those in my house. And I know that not one of them would wish me not to take the shot because of the difficulty it causes them.
 
leadcounsel: Is your position in this thread consistent with your sig?:


Quote:
"An unarmed man can only flee from evil, and evil is not overcome by fleeing from it."

Again, not trying to inject rancor, I'm just saying this is exactly the moral dichotomy I would be making a decision on.

Respectfully,
Les

Who's suggesting fleeing? I'm offering tactics. If you have better suggestions we're all waiting...

If any innocent persons life is in danger, stop the threat. Wouldn't you want someone to do that for your family?

You know, it is possible to ESCALATE the violence by opening fire in a public area. The variables are endless but there could be civilians on the other side of the gunman, other gunmen, the gunman could have a hair trigger pointed at someone, etc. Your actions must be well planned and perfectly executed.
 
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