.303-vs-30-06 which is better

KG,

The P14 is NOT a SMLE! The P14 is a completely different (mauser-based) design than the SMLE, and from it's introduction had a peep sight. Because of the immediate need for alot of rifles for the U.S. armed forces, the U.S. gov't simply stopped production of the P14 at Eddystone, Remington, and Winchester, and retooled to produce the rifle in .30-06. The P14 and M1917 are functionally identical. Look at photos of SMLE's and P14/M1917 rifles and you will see that they are completely different.

Don

Similar performance but the advantage has to go to the 06 due to increased availability, selection of factory ammo, bullets for reloading, and the rimless case is really a better design for a magazine fed rifle.

The fact that you don't see Remington, Winchester or Ruger selling new rifles in 303 ought to be a clue.

Similar performance but the advantage has to go to the 06

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I agree, but neither is a bad round. Take the '06 if given a choice.

The .303 has killed every big game animal on the AFRICAN continent, while I would favor my .30-06 the .303 it certainly capable for elk.

6 of one half a dozen of the other, my experience with remmington's .303 softpoints have been dissapointing, the accuracy doesn't seem to be as good as the fmj.

.303 takes a tea break often and actually calls dinner "Tea" -- I'd have to go w/.30-06 Ackley Improved.
Al

Whoever says that the 303 British and the 30-06 are very close in performance has never read any ballistic table nor the tech specs about these 2 rounds otherwise he/she would never make such ridiculous statement.

You are comparing a 45.000 psi cartridge with a 60.000 psi one and with more case capacity on top of that.

That said, can a 303 Birtish drop an elk?? Sure it can but that doesn't mean that is equal to a 30-06 in performance.

According to the Hodgdon reload data center a 30-06 (24" barrel) can drive a 180 gr. bullet up to 2800 fps where the 303 cannot even reach 2500 (out of a 25" barrel)

It is like saying that the 30-06 is almost in the same power class as the 300 Weatherby Magnum.....

According to the Hodgdon reload data center a 30-06 (24" barrel) can drive a 180 gr. bullet up to 2800 fps where the 303 cannot even reach 2500 (out of a 25" barrel)

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I've been driving 190SMK's at 2900fps out of my 26" barreled .30-06 for the past 10 years.

Don

my experience with remmington's .303 softpoints have been dissapointing, the accuracy doesn't seem to be as good as the fmj.

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Well, my .303 is a Canadian M1905 Ross. Those rifles failed in the trenches in WWI, and one attempt to make them work was to deepen the chamber -- which was done to mine.

Ejected cases look like .303 Epps! To reload, I use a Lee Collet Die, and put washers on the shell holder, so as to resize only some of the neck -- anything else would destroy the case on the second firing.

Lots of SMLEs were also "hogged out" like that and fully sized cases (like new ammo) will not shoot well. In addition, Enfield bores vary greatly from rifle to rifle. I think Remington bullets are a bit on the small size, and if you have a slightly oversize bore they won't shoot well.

The .30-06 is more fast and powerful, but does that make it better? To me no it doesn't, to some others yes it does. I would bet that more high-velocity loadings in .30-06's have shattered more hams and ruined more edible meat on running shots and such than the .303 has ever done...

I vote for the .303, but then again I'm in Canada and Enfield's are everywhere here, as is the ammo. I call it the "Commonwealth Special" and have used them in other Commonwealth countries as well with great success on game...The .30-06 has never really appealed to me, and anything over the 7x57 and .303 power range I feel is overkill anyways, don't need more velocity... The .303 kills well and I'm satisfied with it. I think the Enfield rifle and the ballistics of the .303 brit and similar moderate velocity rounds like the 6.5x55SE and 7x57 Mauser suit some people better than a modern Rem 700 in .300 win mag or .30-06. Also one person here mentioned the reliability of the Enfield in rough weather conditions. But more than that, I just plain enjoy carrying an Enfield .303 in the bush and watching that 180 gr Winchester power-point blast through at 2400 fps (not explode at 2900+), penetrate like she always does and make the kill...

Every large game animal I have shot with the .303 was killed with one shot. 2400-2500 fps from a 180 gr bullet is just perfect for me. I like that bullet weight (and the 215 gr), speed and recoil and power...don't need anything more powerful than that, and I don't care for the modern rifles or calibers much, or rimless cartridges for that matter...the Enfield with it's cock-on-closing and 10 round mag is big medicine for any moose or bear in Canada...it's been killin em dead for over the past 100 years...the .303 has a very long proven track record in Africa, Australia and Canada with regular, consistent kills on all the largest game in the bush in those countries...It will still take the biggest critters out there.

The 30-06 is better in every way. Plus they still make new rifles for it.

I understand Ruger is offering the #1 in 303 British. With that stiff action, you won't have the case stretching issues of a Lee Enfield, and I have no doubt that someone could safely push the 303 must faster than current factory loadings.

The 303 pushed a 174 grain bullet at 2550 fps. That is not was fast as a 30-06, but that is plenty good. That is the velocity of 308 White Box match. It is faster than a 30-30.

The round shot down enough Junkers 88's, ME 109's, and Stuka's. It must have something going for it.

A lot like 180 gr SP when hunting the .303 Brit. The old LEe Enfield rifles were designed for heavier 174 gr FMJ so its about right to use close to that one. Now the SP ammo are not as cheap , almost close to magnum prices per box.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=224779


If you want more velocity , the 150 gr SP just as kills faster.


http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=779097

Despite more than 16 million Lee Enfield .303 rifles produced in the British Empire, this ammo is difficult and expensive to obtain in the USA versus the 30'06 which is available everywhere on the planet for cheap. No commerical company currently loads these rounds with premium bullets i.e. just FMJ and standard Soft points (not that premium bullets are always needed for hunting...but that's another topic altogether).

If you don't reload, you are stuck with expensive soft points or FMJ bullets to feed your pre-1950 .303 Enfield.

I have an old sporterized Enfield .303 Mark III that my father-in-law brought home to the US when he was stationed in West Germany in the 1950s. Since I am not willing to pay more than $30 bucks for a box of 20 cartridges, I am currently trying to reload to feed this old war relic. I recently shot a 100 lb Hog at 170 yards (not bad for a worn out rifle which shoots 2-4 MOA on a good day).

I saw documentery on the history or military channel (forgot which show) that said the British were contemplating replacing the SMLE in the 1920's and 1930's but the great depression slowed them down, and they never got around to doing so when WWII began. The Brits only replaced it when everyone standardized on the 7.62 Nato catridge in the 1950's.

30'06 is definately a big improvement ballistically on the .303, and I really don't see any reason to pick the .303 unless you happen to own or desire an old war relic like the one I own. A .303 will get the job done for sure, but the slow velocity of its bullets (less than 2400 fps) limits your hunting range to about 200 yards unless you are a master at holding over your target.

It is the fastest cycling military bolt action rifle every produced (its as smooth as butter) but rapid fire really has not place in hunting unless your woods are inhabited by zombies. Even with the fastest bolt action rifle in existance, I was only able to get two shots (only one aimed) on a group of Hogs. You really need a a semi-automatic rifle like my AR to take multiple shots on pest like hogs---but that's another topic.

The .303 is like a beefed up brother .30 30 , mild recoil and mild velocity. I see it shine in distances of 200 yds or less in hunting scenario. A great brush gun for that matter with a lot of history.

There isn't anything on earth that a 30-06 has killed that a .303 hasn't done the same.

The .303 back in the day was the go to Elephant gun. Shooting 215-220? grain bullets.

Pick which you like. If you go .303 you will have a harder time finding ammunition unless you live in AUS or CANADA. I love my no1mk3. I shoots just fine, but I go to a 25-06 to kill my meat.

Also the loading for the M1 30-06 is what? A 145 grain at 2500 fps? Everyone raves over this gun and bullet. I am not anti '06. I love the caliber. Think there is none better, but put the bullet where it is suppose to go, and stop thinking that one is better than the other for practicle hunting situations.

I vote for the .303, but then again I'm in Canada and Enfield's are everywhere here, as is the ammo. I call it the "Commonwealth Special" and have used them in other Commonwealth countries as well with great success on game...The .30-06 has never really appealed to me, and anything over the 7x57 and .303 power range I feel is overkill anyways, don't need more velocity... The .303 kills well and I'm satisfied with it. I think the Enfield rifle and the ballistics of the .303 brit and similar moderate velocity rounds like the 6.5x55SE and 7x57 Mauser suit some people better than a modern Rem 700 in .300 win mag or .30-06. Also one person here mentioned the reliability of the Enfield in rough weather conditions. But more than that, I just plain enjoy carrying an Enfield .303 in the bush and watching that 180 gr Winchester power-point blast through at 2400 fps (not explode at 2900+), penetrate like she always does and make the kill...

Every large game animal I have shot with the .303 was killed with one shot. 2400-2500 fps from a 180 gr bullet is just perfect for me. I like that bullet weight (and the 215 gr), speed and recoil and power...don't need anything more powerful than that, and I don't care for the modern rifles or calibers much, or rimless cartridges for that matter...the Enfield with it's cock-on-closing and 10 round mag is big medicine for any moose or bear in Canada...it's been killin em dead for over the past 100 years...the .303 has a very long proven track record in Africa, Australia and Canada with regular, consistent kills on all the largest game in the bush in those countries...It will still take the biggest critters out there.

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Read this again for effect, faster and louder does not kill any better....Once you decide that you are man enough to admit that having the biggest gun doesn't make you the manliest, dropping down a very small amount gets you an awful lot more in the end result, modest rifle at modest velocity with a heavier bullet kills game dead.

Yes, a 45-70 black powder rifle firing a 405 grain bullet at 1394 fps will probably kill anything on the planet with modest recoil 1,748 ft-lb . However, it is extremely limited to short range due to the ballistic profile.

The more modern 30'06 (1906 vs 1895) has a marginal improvement in speed over the .303 enabling slightly longer range without much additional recoil. It is a better choice for hunting big game if you had to pick a new rifle today, i.e. that's why there is a ton of factory loads available.

If you already had a .303 Enfield or are just particular towards that rifle, you can't go wrong...just more limited, pricey ammo selection and slightly shorter range.

Also the loading for the M1 30-06 is what? A 145 grain at 2500 fps?

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Not even close. 152gr bullet at 2800fps. Quite a bit more zookum than any .303 Brit. load.

Don

Winchester offers the 303 in one loading:

180 grain Power point @2460 fps.

They offer the 30-06 in a similar load:

180 grain Power point @2700 fps.

So the 30-06 is clearly more powerful.

Winchester offers 30-06 in nine different bullet types. Not loads, kinds of bullets. They offer 16 different loads.

So ammunition selection is vastly in the 30-06's favor.

Plus you can still buy a large selection of new rifles in 30-06. Not so in 303.

So by any objective criteria the 30-06 is by far the better choice, the rich history of the 303 notwithstanding. How this is open to debate amazes me.

Other than the already mentioned Ruger #1, are there any current production rifles made in .303 Brit? I don't know of any in the US, but how about Canada, UK, or Austrailia?

Ruger isn't offering the No. 1 in 303, at least not according to their online catalog:

http://www.ruger.com/footer/catalogViewer.html

pages 39-41.

In fact, according to the Ruger website's history section, Ruger has never offered the No. 1 in 303:

http://www.ruger.com/service/productHistory/RI-No1.html

I am amazed by the people trying to defend the 303. Nobody has said it's not a useful round, because it is. But the question at hand is which round is better. In the real world the 303 can't hold a candle to the 30-06, either in terms of ballistics or ease of ownership. Period.

Enuf. This will come up again, I'm sure...