460 S&W crimp help

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crimsoncomet

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Hey Fellas,

First time posting here. This site is full of great information. Anytime you type a question into google, it gives you at least one link to this site.

I picked up a new 460XVR about a week ago. I have never loaded for a magnum handgun. I have loaded tons of rifle rounds and smaller caliber handgun rounds. So, my dies and brass showed up and i took the gun for a spin. I bought RCBS 460 dies. I full length sized all new cases to make sure that i had sufficient case neck tension. Flared the case very slightly and then seated the bullet. This is the first cartridge i have needed to roll crimp for in my couple years of heavy reloading, but I caught on quickly. Or, so i thought. I loaded several different flavors of pills. I seated and crimped in two different motions, so that i could verify that everything was perfect. Seating went like a dream and i thought roll crimping also did. I adjusted my die downward until i saw that the case mouth had a shiny place on it. I then backed the die back up so that the case was crimped with no case mouth flattening. While shooting, i noticed that the bullets were being set formard by the recoil. Not out of the cannelure, but about .006" to .015" forward. Is this normal? I would think not. I also tried a redding 454 casull die to crimp with. It didnt seem to crimp any different, and i cant crimp anymore without flattening the case mouth. Starline cases BTW.

Here are my loads:
250 XTP 36g AA no. 9
250 XTP 37g AA no.9
300 XTP mag 37g H110
300 XTP mag 38g H110

What I feel is proper crimp:
Picture002-3.jpg
Picture001-3.jpg

I feel these are starting to get excessive. Notice the shiny ring at the mouth. This is after i noticed the bullets moving forward and i tried to crimp them more. Didn't seem to help anyway.:
Picture003-2.jpg
Picture004-2.jpg

Is there anything else i can do? Or is .010" no big deal as long as it is staying ing the cannelure? I heard lee FCD could do the trick, but i dont really like the idea of them. I grealy appreciate you alls input on this matter. So, this is thanks in advance.
 
You don't like the idea of the Lee FCD? I believe it's your only choice. If you try to put enough crimp with a regular die to hold 460 S&W Mag. bullets under the recoil of full house loads, you WILL deform the case before you get an adequate crimp. Bullets moving under recoil is a big deal. By round 3 or 4 a bullet may have moved enough to jam the cylinder.

One little pointer. There are two different case lengths published in reloading manuals. I would advise you not to trim to the shorter size. Make up a dummy round, send it to Lee Precision with a check for whatever they charge for a custom Lee FCD, and you'll probably have it in your hot little hands in 4 to 6 weeks.
 
I've probably got 1000 rounds through my 500 S&W and haven't had this issue and I've run some rompin' stompin' loads. Sounds to me like there's something else involved here. You shouldn't have to use a FCD. I'm assuming that the cases didn't have any lube in them and were thoroughly clean? When you seated them, how tight did they seat? What kind of bullets are you using? Also your pics didn't come through. Repost?
 
Grumulkin and Strongbad, thank you for the quick replies.

@Grumulkin- I have heard that the Lee FCD resizes the bullet. Do you have any experience with that? Also, would the dumby round i send to lee just be a bullet seated in a case with no crimp and the case flare still there?


@Strongbad- What type of dies are you using? The bullets seat pretty tight. It doesnt take any excessive force to seat them, but you can see the base of the bullet putting a little bullet base ring in the case. These were all hornady XTP bullets i shot yesterday. I have some barnes, but dont really want to shoot that gold until i resolve this issue. As for the pictures, they are showing up i believe. I will look into another way to post them.
 
crimsoncomet wrote:



@Grumulkin- I have heard that the Lee FCD resizes the bullet. Do you have any experience with that?
Click to expand...
The FCD does not resize the bullet. If anyone is experiencing that (on soft lead bullets) then they are over-crimping. The FCD does an excellent job and can't really "swage" a bullet unless you just get crazy with it.

Also, would the dumby round i send to lee just be a bullet seated in a case with no crimp and the case flare still there?
Click to expand...
Yes the dummy round needs to be seated to the correct depth (with NO crimp, NO powder charge or primer). They will normally return the cartridge (crimped) along with your FCD in about 2 weeks. The cost of the die is very reasonable IMO.
 
1. The Lee FCD for shorter cartridges does size the case as it crimps. It's not a substitute for resizing but just removes any irregularities caused by seating the bullet; not a bad thing. The 460 S&W crimp die is made like their rifle dies; it only puts a crimp in the mouth of the case.

2. If you're crimping a bullet without a cannelure with the Lee FCD (a perfectly acceptable practice by the way), you will put a small circumferential groove in the bullet. I don't think this hurts performance in the least.

3. For those who have never reloaded for a 460 S&W Magnum, I'll tell you it's probably different than what you have loaded for if you're shooting full house loads for jacketed bullets. You have to resize even new cases prior to seating bullets AND you have to have a firm crimp; firmer than possible with regular dies, or the bullets WILL walk under recoil.

4. Go to the Lee Precision web site for more information under their custom products section. They tell you what to send in the way of a dummy cartridge and money.

5. The 460 S&W Magnum cartridge has a SAMI maximum pressure rating of 65,000 psi. Shooting cartridges at this pressure causes problems with ejection in some guns and the bullets of some manufactures aren't made to take the velocity produced. This means that many of the published loads aren't all that they could be (i.e., are a bit on the anemic side).
 
Correct Neck Tension

The expander should measure as much as .004" smaller than bullet diameter on a hard recoiling handgun. If you see the outline of the bullets base on the outside of the case of a loaded round your OK. Another test is, measure the case neck area after sizing/expanding, but before seating a bullet. On seating a bullet, has the bullet expanded the brass by at least .002" ? The bullet in the case will take a "set" as the brass fully springs back.
Not out of the cannelure, but about .006" to .015" forward. Is this normal?
Click to expand...
Not a problem as long as the cylinder rotates. IMO.
 
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First, that amount of movement is OK, as long as that is all, and if it is far from interfering with the cylinder moving.

Second, it looks like you are crimping at the very top of the cannelure. You need to seat the bullets a little deeper so you can roll the case into the deepest part of the cannelure. That will give you a better crimp that is less likely to let the bullets move forward. Crimping into the middle at the deepest point of the cannelure is important. When you do this you will also be able to put a heavier roll crimp on them.

The Lee FCD for pistols crimps like any other crimp die. Like other crimp dies, it can be adjusted to ruin a round, or make a superb crimp. The carbide ring is what is accused of sizing bullets. The FCD should not be needed. It can not crimp any better than your crimper can, and if the carbide ring is too small, it can size the bullet a little and hurt neck tension, which is supposed to do 90% of the work anyway. The carbide ring, if too small, will size both the brass and the bullet, but the brass will spring back where the bullet does not, hurting neck tension.

Now, neck tension, which you did not mention. Neck tension is very important. I would suggest polishing down your expander a bit if it is doing a lot of work. No amount of crimp can make up for poor neck tension. The crimp only aids neck tension in its job.


Polish down the expander a little, only expand enough to get the bullet started & no more), seat the bullets a bit deeper to get the brass to roll deeply into the cannelure (You may have to adjust the crimper down a little), and I bet the bullet jump lessons or goes away completely.

Welcome to THR. AC
 
Here is a pic of a crimp on a .44 Mag that may help show the roll crimp going into the middle and deepest part of the cannelure.

attachment.php
 
I agree completely with Walkalong.
Your crimp is perfectly fine.
Your neck tension probably is too if you can see the bullet base expanding the neck.
But you are seating too deep.

Imagine the inside edge of the crimped case being the stopping point for the recoil creep.
It stops the bullet creep when it comes in contact with the rear edge of the cannelure.

Your .006" .015" creep is just the bullet slipping out to that point where it stops.
You need to seat & crimp it there in the first place.

rc
 
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Notice the shiny ring at the mouth.
Click to expand...
The shiny ring you see is called a "neckdown" crimp and is produced by RCBS dies when an extra heavy crimp is performed on big bore bullets. It only works when the bullets have a wide cannelure of at least .060 inches wide.

What the others have said is true, your crimp should be fine. I have yet to have a bullet move outta the cannelure using standard RCBS dies and a heavy roll crimp. I load mostly 240 gr XTP-MAGs, 300 gr XTP-MAGs and 300 gr Gold Dots. I don't know what your intentions are with the 250 grainers made for .45 Colt velocities, if it's for plinkin' I suggest you drop your loads down to around 30gr of AA9. I would not use the 250s for deer or game larger than coyotes and even then I would use a reduced load. That bullet is not really intended for the velocities you are trying to push it.
 
@Strongbad- What type of dies are you using? The bullets seat pretty tight. It doesnt take any excessive force to seat them, but you can see the base of the bullet putting a little bullet base ring in the case. These were all hornady XTP bullets i shot yesterday. I have some barnes, but dont really want to shoot that gold until i resolve this issue. As for the pictures, they are showing up i believe. I will look into another way to post them.
Click to expand...

I'm using RCBS dies. Your crimps look perfect. As for the shiny ring, that certainly isn't anything I avoid on my 500 S&W rounds. I crimp them as hard as I can without buckling the case, and I've buckled a few, it happens. I'll tell you something else I've done on my 500 though. I've resized the cases, then made sure they had a good chamfer on the inside of the mouth and then gone straight to the seating operation with no mouth flare. Whether or not I can do it depeneds on the bullets that I'm using but there are several that I've used with good round edges on the base and they'll ride right in without any mouth flare and those things are TIGHT! Then I apply a good crimp.

Looks like you've gotten some decent info here. I'm going to guess that the bullets are just shifting in the groove. As long as they're not riding out past that you're still fine. Let's see how it goes from here. Keep us posted.
 
Be help! Thanks!

Thanks so much for all the info guys. A little more info for you all.

I mic'd my expander plug- .4494" Need polishing?

Bullet- .4523"

Almost .003" in difference from bullet diameter.

I do run the plug rather deep into the case to get a bit of mouth flare. Maybe i will try just running the tip on this go around.

I crimped the hell out of a round today just to see what it looked like. I will post a picture of it tomorrow. You can actually see the cannelure grooves pushing through the brass. I am also going to look at this closer under magnification. I do not believe this is an RCBS set up. I am guessing this will really affect case life and the accuracy of the bullet. Maybe i am wrong. The brass is not bulged, just sqaushed. Input here?

@strongbad- I may try what you are doing. You dont happen to have any pictures do you? That would be awesome.

@walkalong- Thank you for the picture. I see that i am seating the bullet to deep. I will seat in the middle of the cannelure for my next rounds.

@grumulkin- If i send a .452 caliber bullet to Lee, will i be able to use and crimp using barnes .451 caliber bullet?

I will keep you all posted. I might be able to shoot a few rounds tomorrow.
Thanks again!
 
Your expander is probably OK. Run it in just far enough to flare just enough to help the bullet start, no more. Seat and crimp into the middle of the cannelure and see what happens. Measure the O.A.L. of the 6th round in the cylinder and keep track of how much the bullet moves as you fire the other 5.
 
Here is the new crimp. If this does not work, i will be ordering a new crimp die from Lee. I think seating the bullet here may be the trick. We will see. Do you all see any problem with case life here? My first crimps looked like those 44 mags up above, which i thought was the ocrrect way.

Picture006-2.jpg

Picture005-2.jpg
 
Looks better, but still looks like the crimp is a bit high on the bullet, like it is still seated a hair to deep. Much better though.
 
I bought RCBS 460 dies.
Click to expand...

I do not believe this is an RCBS set up.
Click to expand...


The neckdown crimp can be done with any modern RCBS roll crimp die. There is a good explanation of it in the Speer reloading manual. It needs to be done in a separate step from seating the bullet and as Strongbad says, it takes a while to get the feel of when enough is enough before you buckle the case. When done correctly, it looks similar to some of your pics......

I again feel your crimp looks fine. As far a case life with the .460, don't expect the same life as with .44s or .357s. I will generally load three.... maybe 4 times with virgin brass for hunting type loads and then use the brass for lighter plinkers. With the .460, I also trim all new brass and once fired factory brass to make sure the heavy crimps are consistent on all rounds. I also will check the brass after several loadings to make sure it is still all the same length.
 
Thanks buck460xvr. I loaded a few today. Heavy neck tension and roll crimp. I necked then down all the way to the bottom of the cannelure. We will see how they shoot. Thanks guys.

Picture007-2.jpg

Picture008-2.jpg
 
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Well, to my dismay, my bullets still moved forward in the case. I loaded 5 300g XTP mags with 37g of H110. Barely inserted the expander plug (no flare). So it was def not a max load. I fired four of the rounds, and then measured the last round. It moved .010" forward in the case. Looks like i may be getting a lee factory crimp die. Anyone tested these with the 460 to see if the round moves forward?
 
Quite predictable.

Now...just follow my advice and get the FCD. It will put a light crimp (if you set it up correctly) over the entire area the bullet is bulging the case.

I have a Lee FCD for everything I load.

Even my hottest 458 SOCOM loads don't budge.
 
First, the FL die must size the brass down enough that the expander can open the inside neck area to the correct diameter. 2nd, the brass wall thickness is not always the same between brands/lots. Take measurement with a mic on a sized case, expanded case, and a loaded case. The measurement should always be larger than before.
 
Well, to my dismay, my bullets still moved forward in the case. I loaded 5 300g XTP mags with 37g of H110. Barely inserted the expander plug (no flare). So it was def not a max load. I fired four of the rounds, and then measured the last round. It moved .010" forward in the case. Looks like i may be getting a lee factory crimp die. Anyone tested these with the 460 to see if the round moves forward?
Click to expand...

As I said WAY up there, the LEE FCD dies is the way to go. As opposed to various internet pundits who haven't reloaded for a 460 S&W Revolver or load rather low pressure rounds, I actually load for one and use full house loads. So yes, when I crimp my rounds with a Lee FCD, the bullet stays firmly in place and does not move forward.

And I'm curious, for ya'll who say it doesn't matter if the bullets move forward a little under recoil, do you also resize your new brass?
 
.010 is a very small amount. If they move only that much after 5 rounds, it's not a big deal.

No, I do not load the .460, and was surprised they still moved after getting the crimp centered in the cannelure. I am wondering if there is enough neck tension. I am also interested to see if the FCD crimper stops the movement.

I do not appreciate veiled little nasties. Just state your experience and opinion and leave the s**** a** comments out of it. I am not an idiot and neither are you. I never call folks stupid here.

I was merely trying to be helpful. If my comments did not help, so be it, I hope yours do. I truly want the OP to solve his problem, no matter where the solution comes from.
 
Lee Factory Crimp Die -Handguns

A roll crimp is a roll crimp. Good luck :) Your photos show you already have maximum roll crimp IMO.:confused:Waiting to see if LFCD makes a difference. :scrutiny:
Carbide Factory Crimp explanation

While the bullet seating die that comes with the die set will apply a crimp to the case, there are some great advantages to using the Factory crimp die. One is that cases are post-sized by the carbide sizing ring in the base of the die. This is like the sizing ring in a resizing die, except that it is ground to maximum allowable outside diameter for the case involved. So if there is a buckle in the case from excessive crimp or a bulge from a slightly oversize bullet, the complete cartridge is resized as it is withdrawn from the die; You can be certain that it will chamber, because it has been resized after the bullet was seated and crimped. There is no provision for seating the bullet with the Factory Crimp Die.

The type of crimp on the die depends upon the type of cartridge. With cases that headspace on the case mouth such as the 45ACP, the die essentially reduces the outer diameter of the case mouth into the bullet. On other cases, a roll crimp is applied.

The degree of crimp is adjusted by how far down the knob on the top of the die is turned in. The proper setting for this die is with the adjustment knob turned all the way up, turn the die into the press until it touches the shell plate or shell holder which should be in the raised position. Then, raise an empty case into the die and begin to turn the knob inward until you feel it stop on the top of the case. Another 1/2 turn will apply a good crimp and you can adjust from there to suit your specific need.
Click to expand...
 
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