Carbine vs Mid-length AR

Pistons open up a whole new can of worms. We already know the weaknesses of the DI system. If we switch to a piston we have to figure all the problems out again.

If you want a piston, get one that was built as a piston, ie LWRCi, LMT MRP or H&K 416. The conversion kits use a piston that uses the same small diameter hole in the reciever that the gas tube uses. Thats an awful small piston to put up with the forces from firing the rifle.

Wow, you guys are making my head spin! I know diddly-poop about AR's, so I don't understand what y'all are talking about. All I know is I just bought this one last Saturday and paid $800 for it and what you see it the photo, so I'm brand new to this. My understanding is that it's a "mid-length", and it's called a "Lite 16", I think it was. It's a DPMS, has a scope mount and Magpul(?) rear sight added.

So what do I have here, is it any good? Decent deal? I just wanted it for target shooting and plinking. Just picked up a nice used Sightmark SM13041 Tactical red-dot sight for it too.

My understanding is that it's a "mid-length", and it's called a "Lite 16", I think it was. It's a DPMS, has a scope mount and Magpul(?) rear sight added.

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That is a carbine length gas system and cabine length DPMS "Glacier" handguards on a 16" barrel. Sounds like a good price with all the accessories. Nice rifle!

I gotta throw this in...



16" mid length gas precision build. It shot like this....



The rifle was really nothing super special, except for the scope. Bravo Company 16" stainless barrel, BCM BCG, Rock River upper receiver.

Bartholomew Roberts said:

Well, you can go down to a 14.5" barrel (same as M4) with a permanently attached muzzle device; but I am sure that the NFA is a big reason for the popularity.



A good discussion on gas piston AR conversions.

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Yep, that is how I built my mouse gun. M4 USGI spec. barrel w/ soldered Phantom... sorry, I stated Vortex earlier, Vortex is on M1A and FAL. If I had it to do again, I would go with the Vortex on the AR as well.

Holly is getting familiar the ACOG... adjusted shooting position from there... tables at this range suck, seat way too far from table.

Gun?

can you see the front post through an optical sight like that?

can you see the front post through an optical sight like that?

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It looks like a hazy, out of focus blurred stick in the bottom 1/3 of the glass. It is very easy to "look through" and I don't think it is any hindrance, but you can sort of "see it" if you are looking for it.

My middy is a 16" Noveske, although I also have an 18" which I believe has an "intermediate" system between middy and rifle. Both are much softer shooting (relatively speaking, it's still a 5.56 so there is no "hard" shooting) than the 10.5" gun with the short system.

My 16" precision mid:



And performance - that a 5rd group at 100yds with a stock trigger and TA11 ACOG (donut) for sights. The grids are 1".

FlyinBryan said:

can you see the front post through an optical sight like that?

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Yep, but as waterhouse stated, it does not hinder your sight picture... hazy, you can see through it, almost like a haze at the bottom. Same configuration as issued by Uncle Sam.

Bartholomew,

Very nice, excellent breathing control. I bet that you easily pull sub quarter sized groups with a nice match trigger. Gotta' love the ACOG. TA-11 is awsome... I barely scraped up enough cash for a 2nd hand TA-31F (chevron).

I am obviously not as experienced as many guys here, but with my limited experience, the best bang for your $$$ resides in your trigger group. All the fancy full floated match barrels and killer optics will not overcome a heavy/gritty trigger.

What helps my ho-hum M4gery is a nice two stage trigger, and tight lock up between the upper and lower. I lucked upon an excellent barrel as well... I have seen very few Bushmaster 1/7 M4 contour barrels.

Azizza said:

Gun?

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Blind?

M4gery with ACOG and Ma-Tec on it... nothing special. We have all seen one. O.K., I'm bragging... I think pix of my wife shooting a black rifle is cool.

LOL sorry about that, I got it off of one this forum's moderators (Zak Smith) websites http://demigodllc.com/

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If you are referring to post #4,

When talking about the different gas systems on a 16" barrel,

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Please check your references. This was written by "usmc03" on his web-site http://03designgroup.com




03designgroup | Carbine vs. Mid-Length Gas System on a 16" Barrel


Here's an article I wrote that is relevant.. how AR's look when performance is graded:


article | Evolution of the 3-Gun Practical Rifle

Blind?

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No just distracted.

Very nice, excellent breathing control. I bet that you easily pull sub quarter sized groups with a nice match trigger.

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Maybe; but it costs me reliability in the trigger group and I don't really need to be more accurate than what the rifle can already do for my shooting purposes.

I find that just shooting the stock triggers quite a bit smooths them out through normal wear. Also, I'm fortunate enough to have enough AR15 parts on hand that I can mix and match stock triggers and hammers to get a good initial set-up.

can you see the front post through an optical sight like that?

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FlyinBryan, yes. I think it's an advantage as you can "shoot the tube" if your using a RDS. No need for a BUIS. It seems awkward at the gunstore, but once you get on the range or in the field, it's darn quick to engage a target if your dot fails....

FWIW, I turned the dot off and determined how much of the FSB to allow in the tube to hit a target. Once I had that figured out and verified with the dot, I used a paint pen to mark the FSB. If the battery croaks, only thing I have to do is align that painted spot with the bottom of the tube and I'm back in the game.

Lively discussion.... this thread could branch off into a dozen others!

That is often the way of a good discussion, it brings up other points of discussion. That is why I come to these boards, to learn what I didn't know and help others with what little knowledge I do have

I have to agree with taliv on the trigger issue. I don't run the most expensive triggers, because I prefer something that is more practical than geared toward the bench. I run Geissele SSA-E triggers, which are a lot better than most. When I went to better triggers, I did feel that it helped me to shoot better, but it was more in the sense that I was able to shoot faster without having to devote so much attention to trigger control.

I'm really not that good of a shooter and I'm very impatient, so a good trigger is more forgiving and for me, it makes be faster between shots, but really doesn't make me shoot any better, if I take my time.

Some guys have extraordiary trigger control. For these guys, it almost doesn't matter what trigger they are running. I have an uncle that was bred, born and raised a coon-ass in south Louisiana. I made the mistake of borrowing one of his rifles once and was really surprised to find that it had the hardest, creepiest, dirtiest trigger pull I've ever felt. He always hits what he's aiming at.

taliv said:

i know everyone likes a good trigger, but I have to disagree with this statement. a given barrel will shoot good or not so good and there's nothing you can do to change that other than replace it with a better barrel. the barrel is what has all physical contact with the bullet and is by far the most important piece of the rifle. My advice is to buy the best barrel you can, and build the rest of the gun around it. Nothing you do to the rest of the gun can ever make a bad barrel shoot straight.

The trigger on the other hand, only controls when the gun goes off. It doesn't actually touch the bullet so it doesn't directly affect its flight. Granted, it takes practicing proper technique and trigger control to keep from moving your gun off target when pulling a heavy, gritty trigger... but it can be done. Benchrest competition aside, I think most gun owners chase lighter triggers as an easy way to avoid practicing proper technique and acquiring good trigger control skill.

In the end, they do a disservice to themselves. Not to mention, extremely light triggers are dangerous in the field

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I'm not a benchrest shooter, nor do I care for the sport... no offense to bench rest guys.

Most will agree that an "extremely light" trigger is unsafe when utilized in most applications... especially if the break is not consistent and/or clean.

My RRA match trigger breaks at roughly 5 pounds. I prefer it because it breaks clean, and creep is nearly non-existent. My 5R is dialed in to 3 pounds. Neither of which I would consider "extremely light." They are both reliable.

A shooter modifies their triggers because they want a cleaner break, less creep, and a weight that comfortably suits their application. Suggesting that MOST gun owners seek a "lighter" trigger because their fundamentals are poor may be a little extreme. I do agree that it is common for the average gun owner to believe that a "better" trigger is characterized by the trigger weight alone.


Taking your average EBR, off the shelf, the trigger is typically terrible. Heavy, often gritty, lots of creep.... in this application, I feel that upgrading the trigger will have more of an effect on overall accuracy than an upgraded barrel and/or floated handguards. The trigger ADVERSELY affects your fundamentals as a shooter, regardless of how experienced you are. In comparison, a match/target trigger will do the exact opposite for the shooter... it will complement the shooter's skills. A match/target trigger may be more complementary to the recreational shooter with decent skills than a pro, but lets face, most of us do not have the time and resources to hit the range every day.

I would absolutely choose the Mid-Length system for a 16in. bbl, as it is much easier on the bolt and affords more real-estate for a better grip on the forearm. I see no advantage in the carbine system other than to shave off an ounce of two.

Okay, how about this:

A 14.5" barrel, permanent muzzle device installed, with a midlength gas system?

Serious question, as it's something I'm heavily considering purchasing.

The 14.5" barrels with midlength systems run very smooth. Something akin to an 18" with a rifle length has system. The caveat is that the one you get may or may not run right on less than full power ammo. If you don't shoot wolf or similar ammo, it won't be an issue for you.

Just make sure that you really like the muzzle device. Once you have it pinned, changing it means cutting off the one you have and then having another one welded/pinned or silver soldered on. I'd suggest either a battle comp 1.5 or a smith vortex.

What Tony said, but I would also consider the FSC-556 and the extended-length "A2" made by BCM.