Double Taps

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Thank you for the personal slurs.
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There is no personal slur there, I'm just stating an observed fact. We all had to start somewhere, most start in "D" class. No shame in that.

With proper technique, it takes no longer to visually confirm a flash sight picture for that second shot than it does to ignore the sights and simply fire the gun when comes down from recoil. Again, just stating an observed fact.
 
Double tap, hammers and controlled pairs are ambiguous terms whose meanings shift according to who is using them. There is no "right" or "wrong" way to deliver them.

It either works or it doesn't.
 
I was drilled from the start that "double taps" are two shots, one sight picture, but are not to be used beyond a certain range (I don't try it beyond 7 yards....your mileage may vary). Given a solidly built semi-auto, aiming becomes timing and two rounds can be sent through two overlapping holes. And there is nothing wrong about it if the rounds are on target. Point shooting is arguably more of a hazard than the double tap ever could be. If you need to harp on sight picture, start with point shooting.
And the "D-Class" comment was condescending and lacked well...class. Please consider how it will be perceived more closely than how you mean it.
 
And the "D-Class" comment was condescending and lacked well...class.
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Well as has been said, we all have to start somewhere...surely you're not advocating that we should start all shooters at the Master level, no matter how well, or poorly, we shoot.

D-Class is simply the designation for the entry level class, it is the Official designation...the class designations are in place to help shooters compete with others at the same skill level. One advances from there to C-Class, B-Class and A-Class

What would you suggest we designate an entry level class?
 
I was drilled from the start that "double taps" are two shots, one sight picture, but are not to be used beyond a certain range (I don't try it beyond 7 yards....your mileage may vary).
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+1 what he said. Where I cut my teeth (.mil and LEO side of the house), "double tap" and "hammer" were/are used interchangably, and were distinct from "controlled pairs" because the fewer sight pictures and less precision were involved compared to controlled pairs.

And both are relevant and effective techniques. Like the quoted poster said, it's only good up to a certain point, varying by shooter.
 
There is a word for folks that shoot like that: D-Class
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D-Class is simply the designation for the entry level class, it is the Official designation...
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Thank you and duh. But when did the OP say he was firing in ANY competitive division? This is clearly a slight against him and is comparable to "B-Squad", "Amateur", "Novice", and "Rookie" remarks. Clearly, they are all real titles, but when they are applied without imperical evidence as to the actual skill of the subject in question, they are easily derogatory. It's even worse to attempt to change the meaning of the insult AFTER it's already been said...at least own it.
 
And the "D-Class" comment was condescending and lacked well...class. Please consider how it will be perceived more closely than how you mean it.
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First of all, _I_ made the comment, not 9mmepiphany, so HE doesn't need to "own it"....

I made the comment because, looking at the OP's video, we never see his hits.....unless you count the pumpkins that he misses just as often as he hits them. Further, the technique, as demonstrated, shows several problems.........if you know what to look for.

I have shot competition for quite some time and always am amused when a "D" class shooter tells me how it should be done, even tho his "superior technique" results in several misses per stage.

The video suggests "letting the slide slapping forward bring your sights back to the original point of aim." That's just silly. Watching the video clearly shows the slide is fully forward while still pointing high in the air.

The OP begged for "comments and criticisms" in post #2, so I made a couple.
 
First of all, _I_ made the comment, not 9mmepiphany, so HE doesn't need to "own it"....
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Understood. I was talking to you.
I'm not arguing the OP is an IPSC grand master, but I don't feel the need to trash talk. Your last post made much ado about flawed technique and your piles of experience....that's a big 180 from your previous "No shame" cop-out. So, you concede you were being derogatory and talking down then?
 
Only thing I disn't like about the video (and most others on youtube) is that you don't show your target. Everybody can pull the trigger that fast, but did you hit anything? (not saying you didn't!)
 
Only thing I disn't like about the video (and most others on youtube) is that you don't show your target. Everybody can pull the trigger that fast, but did you hit anything? (not saying you didn't!)
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+1. I didn't catch any numbers like group size. Have you evaluated this technique with anything more numerically descriptive than squash? Not saying I don't enjoy raining the hate down on some squash now and then... :'P
 
but I don't feel the need to trash talk.
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As I already said in post #26, I wasn't trash talking, just stating an observed fact.

Your last post made much ado about flawed technique and your piles of experience....
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The flawed technique is WHY the comment about "D" class was made.

that's a big 180 from your previous "No shame" cop-out. So, you concede you were being derogatory and talking down then?
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It's hardly a 180, it's more of an amplified explanation. If you watch the video again, the last time he shows the gun being fired, (around 1:19) it's easy to put your cursor at the point of the muzzle before the first shot. Keeping it there (and allowing for the minimal movement that happens as the camera zooms in) you can easily tell the second shot fired is nowhere close to where the first shot was fired. If he's shooting at a a 10 yd silhouette (which he states in text that "with practice, all shots will be in the 9-ring") if the first shot was an "X" then the second shot was high in the 7-ring.

I'm glad he found a technique that he thinks works for him, but I do not agree with his statements about how to really improve handgun skill.
 
The video suggests "letting the slide slapping forward bring your sights back to the original point of aim." That's just silly. Watching the video clearly shows the slide is fully forward while still pointing high in the air.
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If you watch the video again, the last time he shows the gun being fired, (around 1:19) it's easy to put your cursor at the point of the muzzle before the first shot. Keeping it there (and allowing for the minimal movement that happens as the camera zooms in) you can easily tell the second shot fired is nowhere close to where the first shot was fired.
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When you run a video in slo mo, it simply chops it up into a series of still pictures. If the still picture doesn't coincide with the gun in full return, there's nothing you can do about that. However, if you watch the clip at full speed, you can see the gun is level for each shot.

Groups? I'm getting 6" to 8" (vertical ovals) at ten yards. These stay within the 9 ring of a silhouette target - combat accuracy.

I don't claim to be a competitive shooter. I'm just having fun showing a technique that works for me.

I've shot the traditional "two sight pictures - two shots" off and on for years, mostly with a 1911. I was never very fast or particularly accurate. Not even "D" quality.

Recently, I've bought a couple of Hi Powers. These are what I've been playing with lately and I find this platform works very well with the technique I'm describing. I'm in Alaska and my personal "range" is snowed in, so I won't be practicing much till break up. When I do, I'll try it with a variety of platforms and see if I can manage it with other pistols.

And by the way - all of the shots hit the pumpkin.
 
There are in fact horribly wrong ways to attempt this technique.
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Like how? Shooting through children? Yeah, that would be wrong.

If you can consistently put your rounds on target, you are doing it right. This isn't high school math and you don't have to show your work. You only have to have the correct answer which in this case is; you hit the target.
 
If you can consistently put your rounds on target, you are doing it right.
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There is a converse statement to the one above. The converse, effectively means that there is a wrong way, and it also defines the signs associated with an incorrect method.

I have to believe that you know this. For one, you made a very illustrative post here, that showed correct and incorrect techniques.

The same is true for this type of shooting; there are correct ways and incorrect ways of attempting it. Some of your own comments reinforce this fact. I get the feeling that you are defending your technique, when I've never actually said it was wrong. If you read my previous post, you'll see that I'm not commenting on the general propriety of your technique. I wasn't even commenting on your technique there. I was stating that I am unable to settle for methods that are a shortcut to the goal I'm working toward.
 
The converse effectively means that there is a wrong way, and it also defines the signs associated with an incorrect method.
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The signs of the incorrect method would be missing the target.

It is not "my" technique, though I happened on this by chance rather than instruction. Others in the thread have clearly stated that this is a method that they were taught, by somebody, at some point in time. It works for me, and the other method doesn't, or at least it isn't nearly as fast. YMMV.

I am only defending this only as far as it works, for me.

I shoot with a modified Weaver stance. I would not presume to tell somebody else (that shoots well), that their Isosceles or old fashioned bullseye stance is incorrect. The proof is in the target. If they miss, they're doing it wrong. If they hit, they're doing it right, no matter what technique they employ.

Shooting is a results based activity. There is no right or wrong method of achieving the desired result.
 
To do a hammer and hit nything you need to controll the recoil much more than in your videos.
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I suspect if you film any shooter in slo-mo you'll see a lot more recoil than you suspect. In these clips, I'm actually gripping the gun quite lightly because I find doing so brings the gun back on target. When I bear down on the gun (I'm a 1911 guy originally), I find the second shot goes low.

Anyway, Hi Powers are new to me and I find I can do things with them that I can't do with a 1911. This is one of those things.

Double tap = two sight pictures, one for each shot. http://www.youtube.com/user/shooting...15/Wbg2s2bfjhw

Hammer = One sight picture for two shots = poor score.
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That's one definition, but everyone has their own. They're just words that mean different things to different people. I don't pretend to be doing anything competitive, nor do I plan on starting.

The only thing it means to me is that I might consider a 9mm as a carry gun. Prior to this, it was pocket guns for summer and .45's for winter. Now, I can't see any reason not to use a 9mm for winter carry.
 
Nuke8401 said:
Double tap = two sight pictures, one for each shot. http://www.youtube.com/user/shooting...15/Wbg2s2bfjhw
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Having watched the YouTube clip, I can understand why you believe you are right. But the truth is that that clip byshootingcoach is just incorrect...but maybe he based it on Wiki (or even posted it)

The double tap as described by Jeff Cooper in his Modern Technique writing is two shots using only a single single picture picture...this was back in the days when the modern technique taught that you could hold a gun down in recoil enough to keep it from raising off the target. He describes it in detail in his book Cooper on Handguns
 
One thing good that's come from this thread is that there ARE quite a few definitions of what a "Double Tap" is.

Turns out Wm. Fairbairn gets credit for the technique, but I can't find a reference to how he truly executed it. One sight picture or two?

I did not know prior to this that Gunsite itself apparently no longer uses the term, due to the confusion that has evolved from it.

It's always good to define our terms, to make sure we're all on the same page.
 
I did not know prior to this that Gunsite itself apparently no longer uses the term, due to the confusion that has evolved from it.
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I didn't know that either...I did just look it up

I know that the most common usage of the term seems to be among new shooters and on general firearms forums.

In LE were we always taught to fire Controlled Pairs

Turns out Wm. Fairbairn gets credit for the technique, but I can't find a reference to how he truly executed it. One sight picture or two?
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I saw that too...I didn't realize it dated back that far
 
As I already said in post #26, I wasn't trash talking, just stating an observed fact.
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You were trash talking. We all know a tap dance when we see it. You don't do your credibility any favors by failing to own up.
If he's shooting at a a 10 yd silhouette (which he states in text that "with practice, all shots will be in the 9-ring") if the first shot was an "X" then the second shot was high in the 7-ring.
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Mathematically impossible to prove given the setting and equipment used.
The flawed technique is WHY the comment about "D" class was made.
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Even that flawed technique does not provide sufficient empirical data to classify a man in a division he isn't even firing in. It was derogatory, in poor taste, and unnecessary. You aren't convincing anyone otherwise. I've been fighting long enough that I get tired of it quickly. You won't hear any more from me about this.
 
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