I know very little about this style of rifle, and have never fired one. Someone made a comment that they were more unsafe than a regular rifle because your face is right next to the chamber. Is that a concern? What are the pros and cons to this design? It seems it would have a shorter overall length.
Bullpups... pro and con?
- Thread starter Balrog
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mc223
Member
I would not say they are unsafe. Just not my cup o tea.
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Mark-Smith
Member
Pro:
Compact size with a full length barrel.
Visually interesting design.
Con:
Spongy triggers.
Not a lot bullpup rifles out there.
Tend to be more expensive overall.
A personal favorite when it comes to bullpup designs, the WA 2000. There's probably more accurate per dollar spent stuff out there, but it's pricey and rare and did I mention rare?
Compact size with a full length barrel.
Visually interesting design.
Con:
Spongy triggers.
Not a lot bullpup rifles out there.
Tend to be more expensive overall.
A personal favorite when it comes to bullpup designs, the WA 2000. There's probably more accurate per dollar spent stuff out there, but it's pricey and rare and did I mention rare?
Someone made a comment that they were more unsafe than a regular rifle because your face is right next to the chamber.
How many people do you know who've been hurt by a chamber explosion? How many have you read about?
The design makes a ton of sense as an intermediate response rifle, there's nothing dangerous about it beyond the risks of every rifle shot.
How many people do you know who've been hurt by a chamber explosion? How many have you read about?
The design makes a ton of sense as an intermediate response rifle, there's nothing dangerous about it beyond the risks of every rifle shot.
Bullpups have a few benefits and a few drawbacks. You get a shorter package while keeping the benefits of a longer barrel. It makes for a great rifle in vehicles or in tight spaces.
Most of the time the triggers are blah at best and terrible at worst. This is because the trigger is typically connected by a long bar to the trigger components that are situated at the rear of the gun. Not ideal for a target type gun. You also do have your face over the chamber. If you have an issue where the gun explodes, you are sitting over the chamber. That said, how many people have had something like this happen on any type of firearm? Not many, so the fear is a bit overplayed. The big issue on many bullpups, is that for left handed people the brass is ejected into your face. A few designs have found ways around this, but others do nothing to help the lefthanded shooters. Some people find the balance a bit off and prefer a standard setup.
I don't have a need for a bullpup design. As such, other rifles will perform for me as well as a bullpup and will cost a bit less as well.
Most of the time the triggers are blah at best and terrible at worst. This is because the trigger is typically connected by a long bar to the trigger components that are situated at the rear of the gun. Not ideal for a target type gun. You also do have your face over the chamber. If you have an issue where the gun explodes, you are sitting over the chamber. That said, how many people have had something like this happen on any type of firearm? Not many, so the fear is a bit overplayed. The big issue on many bullpups, is that for left handed people the brass is ejected into your face. A few designs have found ways around this, but others do nothing to help the lefthanded shooters. Some people find the balance a bit off and prefer a standard setup.
I don't have a need for a bullpup design. As such, other rifles will perform for me as well as a bullpup and will cost a bit less as well.
kimberkid
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I'm a bullpup fan; I have a few; and over the last 25 years have owned several including the Valmet M82 (fairly rare and the fiberglass shell is fragile and there are no replacements), the Bushmaster M17S (good solid gun but it kind of heavy and the forend gets hot under sustained fire) and Norinco 86S (pretty much collector status, heavy and for shooters there are other/cheaper options) ... I still have an AKU94, AUG A2 and PS90. At the price of a M17S I wouldn't mind having another but probably not the FS2000 ... having a hard time justifying another chambering in 223 in the $2,000 range, plus to me it's a weapon that feels like your handling a 2x8. If I ever win the lottery I'll definitely be adding one to the stable 
In my 35+ years I've never heard of a bullpup blowing up but I'm sure it probably has somewhere ... the conventional rifles that I've seen that have blown up have usually bulged or blown apart the barrel not the chamber and I believe has always been an ammo related issue.
In my 35+ years I've never heard of a bullpup blowing up but I'm sure it probably has somewhere ... the conventional rifles that I've seen that have blown up have usually bulged or blown apart the barrel not the chamber and I believe has always been an ammo related issue.
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
The ones I have fired have a trigger feel that is really a lot like that of stepping on a partially rotten plumb.
Maybe not to the extreme as the one pictured, many seem to be over-stocked and as a result, while having a shorter overall length, often have a greater overall weight than comparable carbines. So for .223/5.56, you have 8 lb bullpups and 6.5-7.0 M4 carbines.
You could have that very pretty WA2000. They haven't been produced in 20 years and there are less than 200 of them. Wonder why? It could be their 15+ lbs weight. Of course, it does fire a bigger cartridge, but 15 lbs is a bit unreasonable.
You have to ask, what was the problem needing to be solved that hasn't been fixed with better answers?
With the action in the stock, there's no way to adjust length of pull, and a folding stock will never happen. The mag well is obviously behind the grip, which adds difficulty to fast mag changes. You wind up pulling the stock off the shoulder, which loses the sight picture.
They were an answer to getting full power from carbine length guns, but the real issue is that combat soldiers don't need full power cartridges anyway. We've also advanced powders and cartridge designs a bit since the first kickoff in designs back in the sixties. Anyone using a 6.x alternative caliber in the AR would be more than happy to explain all about that with charts, graphs, and tables of bullet drop.
Point being, a sidefolding piston AR in an alternate caliber will do more and better, and many would argue using any standard design would do as well. Bullpups are just a collectible sideshow, and it's already noted one nation is seriously investigating a intermediate FAL replacement for theirs. The Brits just bought some American AR10 based guns for SWAsia, not bullpups, which they already had. Apparently they weren't accurate enough for the role.
If there is a clue, look which adopt them - mostly first world nations with extensive bureaucracies entangling their military. I don't know of one new design, other than China's, and none of the Improved Carbine test guns from FN, Colt, SIG, HK, Beretta, Remington, or whoever submitted one.
Bullpups don't fix anything that needed to be.
With the action in the stock, there's no way to adjust length of pull, and a folding stock will never happen. The mag well is obviously behind the grip, which adds difficulty to fast mag changes. You wind up pulling the stock off the shoulder, which loses the sight picture.
They were an answer to getting full power from carbine length guns, but the real issue is that combat soldiers don't need full power cartridges anyway. We've also advanced powders and cartridge designs a bit since the first kickoff in designs back in the sixties. Anyone using a 6.x alternative caliber in the AR would be more than happy to explain all about that with charts, graphs, and tables of bullet drop.
Point being, a sidefolding piston AR in an alternate caliber will do more and better, and many would argue using any standard design would do as well. Bullpups are just a collectible sideshow, and it's already noted one nation is seriously investigating a intermediate FAL replacement for theirs. The Brits just bought some American AR10 based guns for SWAsia, not bullpups, which they already had. Apparently they weren't accurate enough for the role.
If there is a clue, look which adopt them - mostly first world nations with extensive bureaucracies entangling their military. I don't know of one new design, other than China's, and none of the Improved Carbine test guns from FN, Colt, SIG, HK, Beretta, Remington, or whoever submitted one.
Bullpups don't fix anything that needed to be.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
The raison d'etre of a bullpup is to give a long barrel in a short overall length. The Kel-Tec RFB .308, for example, gives you a 32" barrel (!) in a 40" overall length, or an 18.5" barrel in a 26.1" overall length. Imagine how unwieldy an M1A with a 32" barrel would be.
There are tradeoffs, of course, primarily awkward magazine location, and it is harder to do a good trigger on a bullpup due to the necessity of a linkage. I don't see them as being a safety risk, though; they can certainly be designed to vent gas in safe directions in the event of a failure.
There are tradeoffs, of course, primarily awkward magazine location, and it is harder to do a good trigger on a bullpup due to the necessity of a linkage. I don't see them as being a safety risk, though; they can certainly be designed to vent gas in safe directions in the event of a failure.
Mark-Smith
Member
I hear Mr. Walther is willing to part with one or two of his remaining WA 2000's for $75,000 a pop
Weight, cost, these things are just silly details
I like my bullpups. Currently have a PS90 and an RFB. The RFB OAL is under 28"...once I install the FSC30, it will be over 28"...which is still great for having an 18" barrel. I doubt you will see the 24/32" RFB variants anytime soon. KT cannot even meet the demands for the 18" version.
The trigger on the RFB is light years ahead of the PS90.
The trigger on the RFB is light years ahead of the PS90.
SentinelStrategic
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The bullpup style was originally designed to cut size so that the rifle was less cumbersome. It was found that bullpups were ideally suited to urban warfare and CQB use. The British SA80/L85 was one of the first bullpup designs to gain a lot of popularity. They had initial problems with reliability, but they got that figured out. The Israelis recently adopted that Tavor TAR-21, which is proving to be a superb rifle. Other countries have joined in the game.
The advantage of the bullpup design is how compact it is, and the fact that you can put a longer barrel on the weapon without creating a longer rifle.
Let's look at some numbers:
Tavor CTAR-21 (15" bbl) = 25.2" OAL
Tavor MTAR-21 (13" bbl) = 23.2" OAL
SA80 L85A1 (20.4" bbl) = 30.9" OAL
SA80 L22A2 (17.4" bbl) = 27.9" OAL
FN FS2000 (17.44" bbl) = 29.29" OAL
FN FS2000T (15.75" bbl) = 27.08" OAL
M16A4 (20" bbl) = 39.625" OAL
M4 (14.5" bbl) = 29.75"/33" OAL (stock closed/open)
Commercial M4 (16" bbl) = 31.25"/34.5" OAL (closed/open)
They have their roles, but they're not necessarily better or worse. For CQB, I'd take a bullpup. For an open battlefield and longer shots, I tend to push towards conventional design.
The advantage of the bullpup design is how compact it is, and the fact that you can put a longer barrel on the weapon without creating a longer rifle.
Let's look at some numbers:
Tavor CTAR-21 (15" bbl) = 25.2" OAL
Tavor MTAR-21 (13" bbl) = 23.2" OAL
SA80 L85A1 (20.4" bbl) = 30.9" OAL
SA80 L22A2 (17.4" bbl) = 27.9" OAL
FN FS2000 (17.44" bbl) = 29.29" OAL
FN FS2000T (15.75" bbl) = 27.08" OAL
M16A4 (20" bbl) = 39.625" OAL
M4 (14.5" bbl) = 29.75"/33" OAL (stock closed/open)
Commercial M4 (16" bbl) = 31.25"/34.5" OAL (closed/open)
They have their roles, but they're not necessarily better or worse. For CQB, I'd take a bullpup. For an open battlefield and longer shots, I tend to push towards conventional design.
henschman
Member
Another downside to bullpups is that with iron sights, they usually end up having the sight radius of a pistol.
DBryant
Member
Aw, man! I would love to get my hands on one of those RFB's. I know it uses FAL mags, but do they rock in like on a FAL?
Pro: shorter OAL, and/or longer barrel.
Con: Potentially increased cost, mechanical complexity, and decreased flexibility in relation to aftermarket parts.
I still dig 'em, and I'm eagerly awaiting a Kel-Tec polymer bullpup in 5.56 feeding from factory-supplied Magpul quad-stack STANAG mags and covered in rail space.
Con: Potentially increased cost, mechanical complexity, and decreased flexibility in relation to aftermarket parts.
I still dig 'em, and I'm eagerly awaiting a Kel-Tec polymer bullpup in 5.56 feeding from factory-supplied Magpul quad-stack STANAG mags and covered in rail space.
LHRGunslinger
Member
The WA2000 is actually pretty easy to find. The President of Walther USA has several NIB and he's willing to part with them for the meager sum of $75,000
I love my RFB, it's a fun little gun. No you do not have to rock in the mag, it is a straight push so they are easy to change out.
I also have the E-4 MSAR and that is a sweet little gun too!
I don't feel bullpup rifles are dangerous. Neither one of my has that bad of a trigger either.
LHRGunslinger
Member
A few months ago I went to a gun shop & handled the Bushmaster ACR & then I handled an MSAR. I peronally LOVED how the MSAR balanced with most of the weight towards the rear making it very pointable.
JustinJ
Member
I have an MSAR with the ar mag stock and i love it. It's extremely modular and more than accurate enough. For CQB a bullpup cant be beat. Personally, i feel they handle very well and can actually be fired one handed. Another potential plus of the MSAR is of course the truly quick barrel change. I say potential bc spare barrels are currently few and far between but when(if) they do become available what other rifle can go from a 16" barrel to a 20" or whatever else you like in under 30 seconds? The triggers suck but there are a couple of products out there that drastically improve them. I can hold 1.25" groups with mine now that i've learned the trigger.
As far as blowing up, that is extremely unlikely for a modern firearm with reasonably loaded ammo.
RFB owners, what kind of groups are you getting?
The Keltec 12 gauge is gona be one awesome bullpup.
As far as blowing up, that is extremely unlikely for a modern firearm with reasonably loaded ammo.
RFB owners, what kind of groups are you getting?
The Keltec 12 gauge is gona be one awesome bullpup.
JustinJ
Member
Great looking rifle. How long is the barrel? How is the quad rail attached and who makes it?
Thank you,
The barrel is 18", overall length is 26", with the muzzle brake 27 1/4". The quad rail attaches to the threadded lug on the barrel and then locks down with 2 screws, it did change point of impact when installed so I had to re-sight the gun. They are available here http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=220900606 the rail is very solid and works well. The muzzle brake is made by JP Enterprises and works very well for taming recoil so fast followup shots can be made.
Wow, thanks for the input...glad that looks rank high on your priority list when it comes to choosing a firearm. Your comment is utterly useless.
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