308 reloading issues

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rc109a

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Ok here is the situation. I bought 500 168g match bullets from Wideners. When I attempted to load them with an overall length of 2.8 the bullets fall into the case. I have tried adjusting the resizing die and have run the bullet seating die as far down as it will go. If I push to hard on the bullet seating die, the shoulder gets bumped and a crushed case. I cannot seat these bullets by hand so the neck tension is fine (at first). What is the problem? Is it the dies, bullets, me?

Here are the bullets:
http://www.wideners.com/itemdetail.cfm?item_id=8439&dir=278|281|727

The dies are RCBS and made in 1970.

Help please!:banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead::banghead:
 
I have adjusted the resizing die (thinking about neck tension but that did not make any sense). I went at first without crimp in the bullet seating die. Then with crimp. In some cases once I get the bullet seating stem adjusted close to the point it will meet 2.8 then as I attempt to set the bullet seating die (first time without crimp and second time with) the round falls into the case. I have followed RCBS's directions on setting up the bullet seating die and seating stem. Does this make sense or still muddy?
 
At 2.800 O.A.L. the bullets fall in the case? It can't possibly have enough neck tension if they do. Those bullets should work just fine. Doesn't make sense.

You are not real clear as to your die adjustment.
 
Have you taken caliper to see if you I.D. for the neck is .306"?
It sounds like the neck is near or over .308"
 
Is is possible the bullets are defective? Have you measured the base of the bullet to see if they are oversized? If they were it would stretch the necks to the point where they wouldn't hold the bullet.

Just a thought....
 
I set the sizing die until it touched the shell holder with the ram all the way to the top. I then lowered the ram and adjusted the die 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn more.

I checked the bullets and the largest portion of the base was .308. I checked 30 and they are all very consistent. I do not have a great way to check the inside of the cases. Most I checked were .306. The ones that were bigger I could not force a round in the case by hand so it was smaller then .308.
 
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I am having the same problem with the same bullets.
I cannot push these bullets into the resized case by hand but when I seat the bullet to around 2.800 it will just fall into the case. If I seat the bullet to around 2.900 the neck tension is ok but not good.
I am using a new set of 308 Lee Pacesetter Dies.
The resizing die is set up per Lee instructions.
The seating die is set up without crimp.
All the bullets measure in at 308
Maybe these bullets are just designed to seat to a longer OAL??

Larry
 
If the diameter of the bullets are .308", then the expander ball and inside case neck should be .306", or near that.
.002" difference will give you proper neck tension.
You can spin-sand the expander ball if it's too big, or order a new one of the correct size from Lee. No amount of case resizing will alter the problem if the expander ball is too large to start.
308 Win in a short action usually requires a 2.80 COAL to work through the magazine.



NCsmitty
 
Case length should be 2.000" COL at 2.8" should leave 0.8" sticking out. Check bullet diameter at 0.9 from tip. Should be 0.308". If bullet taper is too great you will push the base through the short neck of the 308. Bullet then falls into the case.
Back seater die way out so it never touches an empty case, then adjust seater plug by lowering it until correct COL is reached.
 
If the diameter is .308"

What is the actual diameter of these bullets?
 
I set the sizing die until it touched the shell holder with the ram all the way to the top. I then lowered the ram and adjusted the die 1/8 to 1/4 of a turn more.

Why not try for minimum headspace instead of maximum. Instead of screwing in the die a quarter turn inward, do the opposite. If the case chambers, you will have extended it's life threefold.
 
Laary said:
Maybe these bullets are just designed to seat to a longer OAL??

Negative, I've loaded 800 rounds of .308 using 168gr SMK's (I'm assuming that is what he meant by Match bullets, although I realize that there are more than just Sierra's Match rounds in 168gr) to COL 2.810ish which fits perfectly into my AICS mags for my 700. The first batch of nearly 150 I made where seated to 2.800" and some went shallower than that with no issues. Then again, I'm neck sizing only using the Lee Collet Neck Sizing die which may have helped the situation some. Even my FL sized rounds never have issues, they actually have tighter neck tension as can be felt when seating the bullets than the neck sizing.

Of course, if he is not talking about Sierra's bullets, then ignore my post :p
 
Since the wideners description leaves much to be assumed, the bullets are not Sierra matchkings. That said, the DO mention these do not have a cannelure. Sooooooooo why are you attempting to crimp them?

I have adjusted the resizing die (thinking about neck tension but that did not make any sense). I went at first without crimp in the bullet seating die. Then with crimp. In some cases once I get the bullet seating stem adjusted close to the point it will meet 2.8 then as I attempt to set the bullet seating die (first time without crimp and second time with), the round falls into the case.

Attempting to crimp a smooth sided bullet WILL result in case shoulder bulges. That's the only problem I see is trying to crimp into a bullet without a cannelure. Besides a crimp is NOT needed if you have good neck tension.

You don't mention the case make, powder load, primer. Not that it's important, but why not tell the whole story?
 
Snuffy
I am not sure where your going with your comment "but why not tell the whole story" as if I am hiding something. I am using LC90 brass. I always make dummy rounds first before I use powder or primers. This way I have something to go back to for comparison. I know I can just take notes, but this is my way of doing things.

The reason I tried to crimp smooth bullets is that nothing else was working. I had nothing to lose by trying it. I prefer not to use a crimp unless I use the Lee FCD and that is just for my revolvers and AR's (maybe).

I did call RCBS. I told them the expander dies measurement and they said that it was worn. They are not sure if this will fix the problem, but in his words "its free give it a shot". RCBS is also sending me parts to upgrade these dies. Gotta love their customer service...

So does anyone else have any ideas? Keep them coming and I will give them a shot. Thank you all very much for all the help.
 
rc109a, sorry about my reference to Lee, as I missed the info about the RCBS dies.
With RCBS in on the problem, they should be able to help you out, and solve the problem. At some point, you'll not need to crimp the bullets as neck tension should hold the bullet securely.



NCsmitty
 
rc109a, sorry about my reference to Lee, as I missed the info about the RCBS dies.
With RCBS in on the problem, they should be able to help you out, and solve the problem. At some point, you'll not need to crimp the bullets as neck tension should hold the bullet securely.

Laaary has the Lee dies so it does make a difference. What I don't understand is why two different set of dies are having the same issues. I have no intention (and never did) on crimping these rounds. I was trying everything I could think to make these work. I just never had these issues before and this is not my first time reloading for 308 (got a new 308 as remorse for selling my last one...lol). Once again thanks for all the suggestions and help.
 
Snuffy
I am not sure where you're going with your comment "but why not tell the whole story" as if I am hiding something.

Not that you're hiding anything, but the more info we have the quicker we can get to a reason for your problem. Guessing has no place in handloading. Everybody was guessing about causes because we/they didn't know it was military brass. What is the history of that LC90? Has it been reloaded a lot of times. Possible it is time for an annealing? If the necks are real hard, AND those "match" bullets are real soft, they could be getting swaged down to allow them to drop through.
 
The brass is once fired MG. I did check the bullets afterwards and they are still the same dimensions as prior. I guess we will see what happens after RCBS sends the new parts.
 
OK RC109, I think I know what your problem is. Take a resized case without a bullet in it, put it in the shell holder and run the ram to full stroke without the seating die in the press. Now loosen the seater plug, located on the top of the die, and back it out as far as you can without it falling out. Now thread the entire seater die in until you feel it touch the case mouth with the ram at full stroke. After it touches, back the entire die body out about 1 turn. Now put a bullet in the case and run it full stroke back into the die, leave the press at full stroke and adjust the seater plug, loacted on the top of the die, down until you feel it contact the bullet. Lower the ram and adjust the plug down a couple of turns and run the ram full stroke again. Your bullet should now be started into the mouth. Raise the press arm and continue adjusting the seater plug down until your at the seating depth you want.
I think what you were doing was putting crimp on the mouth, without the seating plug first contacting and seating the bullet. This would also crush the case, and or, case mouth when exerting enough pressure, which is what it sounded like you were doing.
 
I don't intend to undermine your hand loading experience with my post, but, even if the brass is out of spec to some extent, it should still hold the bullet with a crimp. And more pecular than that is, why it would show enough neck tension prior to seating. So that is why I listed instructions in my last post on adjusting your seating die. I still think it may be adjusted incorrectly? I tried to deliberatly reproduce your circumstances and it did exactly the same thing as your problem.
My appology if I offended you Sir, I just want to help if I can. Good luck and happy loading!
 
If RC109a and Laary are having the same problem with the same bullets.... Sounds like the bullets to me. I have loaded many different .308 bullets into many different brands of brass including LC and have never experienced this problem
 
Thanks for all the suggestions
A little more info on my situation
Brass is LC 96, I don’t know the history on it but the primers were crimped so I’m thinking it’s once fired.
My expander button measures exactly .306 and the bullets .308
This is my first time reloading 308 but I plan on using Varget.
When I seat the bullet to 2.900 it has pretty good neck tension, I can push it in the case by pushing it against my bench with moderate force. I can NOT push my 223 bullets in that easy.
As soon as it gets in the 2.800 area it just falls into the case.
My seating die was set up per Lee instructions; I will try Gamestalkers suggestion and see how that works.

Larry
 
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