Mossberg Just in Case at the Range

...that is until some other Doc who is kind of a "survivalist" brought it up.

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Gotcha.

If you want to sell to any "weekend warrior/survivalist"; all you need to do is put pretty much anything in a water-tight tube, toss in a multi-tool and call it a _____pack. They're usually the same guys who buy full on hiking gear to take a 4 mile hike on pedestrian type trails and ask questions about which handgun caliber for rabid, charging bears.

Some ballistic gel tests would be good evidence to show that birdshot is pretty unreliable for anything defensive other than a warning shot or a last ditch choice when it's all you have.

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Birdshot can kill people, but you are right...I'd only use it if that was my only choice. I don't like the term "warning shot." I don't feel that "warning shots" are ever warranted, period. A firearm that is used in self defense is only used as a last resort when your life is threatened. At that point, a "warning shot" is nothing more or less than a miss. If you're life isn't in danger, you shouldn't be firing your weapon. You can face legal issues because of that miss. I'm not trying to be all nit-picky, I just believe that "warning shots" are never OK and that we shouldn't bring them up as an option.

I like the Just in Case concept by Mossberg and like the storage container. It would be a grat trunk gun or for something similar. Having said that, I'd also buy a proper stock for it. Maybe one of those folding metal stocks would work allowing you to use the contianer. If not, I'd duct tape a proper stock on the outside.

Over ten years ago I first issued a challenge to the PGO fans.
We'd meet at the range of their choice in or near central MD.
They'd choose the COF, range and ammo.
They could use any accessory on their PGO including lasers and belt feed.
I'll use a close to stock but well used 870.
We'll shoot for score, time decides ties even though there will not be any.
I expect the same results as the last fifty times I've issued this challenge to the PGO fans.

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I think you offered me that challenge too.
I don't shoot skeet or trap so you'll win.........but
It's kinda like a challenge to get a nut off a bolt using a screwdriver, then claiming screwdrivers are no good.

My challenge is more practical.
You think I can't hit anything at H/D range?
You stand in a doorway and I'll shoot from the hip in your direction using only a P/G shotgun at 20'.

So far, no takers.
I'm confused, If I can't hit the broad side of a barn, what's to worry?

ForumSurfer said:

I don't like the term "warning shot." I don't feel that "warning shots" are ever warranted, period. A firearm that is used in self defense is only used as a last resort when your life is threatened. At that point, a "warning shot" is nothing more or less than a miss. If you're life isn't in danger, you shouldn't be firing your weapon. You can face legal issues because of that miss. I'm not trying to be all nit-picky, I just believe that "warning shots" are never OK and that we shouldn't bring them up as an option.

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Legally I can't say. I'm not a lawyer. Under normal circumstances I can't imagine using a warning shot for something like a HD situation. In a Katrina type situation where you really might want someone to get the hell away from you and stop trying to steal your generator, but can't quite justify shooting them on the spot, maybe a round of #7 into the nearest dirt bank would be what's called for. Maybe not. But there are situations where I can imagine looking down the barrel at someone and thinking to myself "maybe I really shouldn't shoot this person. Legally this is shaky. It doesn't feel right. Warning shot it is..."
My family has also been known to use a single round of birdshot fired into the air at a 45 degree angle (in a very rural area and toward a forested area where no one lives) to frighten predators away when the dogs start raising hell at night. Maybe not the best - a bird bomb would be better - but it's what was available and it prevented anything from actually getting killed and the risk of a falling birdshot pellet harming anyone or anything in a virtually unpopulated area is practically nonexistent.
I wouldn't categorically rule a warning shot out, especially if I was in a rural area where it wouldn't necessarily be unsafe or even all that frowned upon by local LEO's... because there are still some who figure if you're twenty miles from help and the problem got solved without a fatality, that's good enough.
Then again, I am from rural Pennsylvania.

We didn't run any 00 nor 3 inch so perhaps the ante goes up?

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Oh yeah. Try a bear killer Brenneke out of it, but make sure your medical coverage is in place with a low deductible.

You stand in a doorway and I'll shoot from the hip in your direction using only a P/G shotgun at 20'.

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It's a classic logical fallacy found on many gun threads. The side losing the argument challenges the other side to volunteer to get shot with the particular firearm or cartridge in question. Obviously nobody will take that up. Even a .32 short lemon squeezer isn't something a person would volunteer to be shot at with. So the claim proves nothing.

Modern folding stocks are darn good and have obviated the only real reason for PGO's in the first place--ease of transport. For bear defense PGO's are worse than useless. The recoil of the 3,000 ft. lb. hardcast slugs is fearsome out of a fully stocked slugster barrel Mossberg, let alone out of a PGO. For home defense they might be enough to get the job done, but a fully stocked combat shotgun will be much better at it.

I'm sorta getting kind of confused. I might be getting some of your opinions mixed up. I thought I read that PGOs, were not effective beyond 15-20yds on the outside. And that another reason PGO's were not effective, was the size of the spread was so small under 15yds. If we're already restricted to 15-20yds, what again is the advantage to slugs or buckshot at that range, small pattern is small pattern. If you have to chase them down the street, until you can use your range superiority (30-40yds), it might be tricky,to defend in court. Since there are no professionals teaching PGO, it would be good to get yourself some experience, write a book, be on a talk show, or what ever else it takes to be an expert, so you can open up a school, it seems like a niche market with a lot of interest. It is only 20 yds from my front porch to the street. Looking at the blueprints the longest shot inside my house, would be 26 FEET. The most obvious disadvantage, to PGO that I can see, is it would be easier, to snatch and grab away, than 1 with a stock. I'm always amazed that one doesn't come up. And they are tricky to execute a butt stroke with.

You might get him to shoot some buck shot to convince him about the value of a stock. Low brass birdshot loads are fine out of such a gun, but I bet even just a few standard pressure 2.75" 00 buck will make his hand sore.

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Heck, I don't use standard 00 Buck out of my full-stock HD shotgun. Federal's 8 pellet 00 Buck is my go-to. With a 1oz payload coming out at 1150fps there's less recoil there than the cheap bulk pack 1 1/8oz 1200-ish fps target loads.

If the guy has shoulder problems, and a PGO is his best fit, it might be worth getting him to look into the reduced recoil 00 Buck stuff on the market.

You can still miss with a shotgun at 26 feet. And you still have to aim properly--which means a proper shoulder stock.

If the guy has shoulder problems,

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Then he needs to look into a handgun

Agreed. I don't know what kind of recoil the guy can handle with his health problems, but the reduced recoil buck rounds that I've shot from Federal were quite gentle - almost bird shot equivalent.

I wouldn't categorically rule a warning shot out, especially if I was in a rural area where it wouldn't necessarily be unsafe or even all that frowned upon by local LEO's... because there are still some who figure if you're twenty miles from help and the problem got solved without a fatality, that's good enough.
Then again, I am from rural Pennsylvania.

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I'm from rural nc, and I don't know any of my law enforcement friends who would support a warning shot.

In a Katrina type situation

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It is still no different than normal life. I'm legally responsible for all rounds. If I'm not legally ok to shoot, that person can press charges since I all of a sudden became the aggressor. If I can't shoot him, he doesn't get the rifle/pistol pointed in hi direction or a warning shot. I'm bound by the same laws, disaster or not.

I will concede your point about predators, but not at a 45 degree angle....rule #4.

You think I can't hit anything at H/D range?
You stand in a doorway and I'll shoot from the hip in your direction using only a P/G shotgun at 20'.

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The old "stand there and let me shoot you" argument? We can use that same logic to argue a slingshot and steel ball bearing defense. No matter how good you are with a PGO shotgun, you are better with a shotgun that has a stock. Run a defensive course in tight quarters. There really isn't a scenario where the PGO has a value added benefit other than storage. What does 20' have to do with anything? The pattern isn't very big at 20', maybe 4" at the most with (cheap) buckshot...you can still miss the follow up shot or even the first shot just as easily as you can with a rifle.

The fact of the matter is, if PGO shotguns were such great tools you would see training institutions offering classes. None of them do. Heck, even the lever action rifle gives you a better tactical advantage...and Gunsite agrees since they have lever gun classes.

Then he needs to look into a handgun

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Agreed. A pistol grip pistol seems to be a terrific solution.

Try a bear killer Brenneke out of it

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those maybe rough but why does he always have to shoot the most powerful load he can find. does everyone that owns a .357 shoot full house loads everytime or people with 44's do they shoot 340 grain buffalo bore +p+ everytime?
Reduced recoil buck or # 4's might not be such a Leap for him. Thats the beauty of shotguns plenty of options for ammo.

Is the 'PGO the best option prolly not but with practice and the ammo to match the person it maybe not so bad. Besides he said he was shooting for fun and this may lead his friend to opening the pandora's box of gun collecting.

I was always taught that guns, even shotguns at short distance, must be aimed to be effective. This is more important in a HD situation, when your life or that of your family members, is in danger. I see no point in keeping a PGO shotgun for HD. I will not say that they are not fun for other recreational activities, though.

I think the guy that had the special circumstance of self defense against Grizzly Bears,
was generally agreed upon as a proper application. While buckshot or slugs might be less than pleasant to fire, I would think it would hurt less than a bear mauling.

As for test scenarios contructed to prove one style over the other, that could go on all day. test scenario #1 You don't have a phone or BGs cut the line. Run 2 blocks barefoot in your nighty, to the payphone, first with the PGO and then with full stock. Compare times.And be sure to challenge the experts.
Think you'll hear some real world crickets on that one too.

What is optimum in jungle fire fights, border intercepts or prison riots, may not translate to your circumstance. Depends on your frame of reference.

For fighting in elevators ,stair wells, phone booths, dumpsters, strip club bathrooms, give me an Aluminum bat.

Does that make it better than a PGO?

For those guys touting the superiority of a folding stock as the best of both worlds, take a box of slugs to the range, and shoot ONE of them,stock extended, then go get your ear sewed back on or your cheek bone reconstructed. When you get back you can tell me how it hurts less than shooting PGO's.

Yet another shotgun thread that has wandered way off course. I wonder why it is that some THR members have this urge to post just because, like they have verbal diarrhea of some type and cannot resist.

Cosmoline

It's a classic logical fallacy found on many gun threads. The side losing the argument challenges the other side to volunteer to get shot with the particular firearm or cartridge in question. Obviously nobody will take that up. Even a .32 short lemon squeezer isn't something a person would volunteer to be shot at with. So the claim proves nothing.

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Nay, nay, my good friend.
The question is not would you like to get shot with a .22, .25acp, or .32acp, whatever.
The challenge was that I couldn't hit a target using a P/G only shotgun.
That's a totally different question.
So, If you believe that in a real world situation, a robber in my doorway, might very well be hit with a P/G shotgun at 20' or less, then you made my point.
Thanks!

First, Guns and More, I wasn't talking about trap or skeet. Read the challenge. The PGO fan gets to pick the Course Of Fire (COF). That could be Dozier Drills, El Presidentes, tombstones, rats as the landfill or knocking bowling pins off a table. I haven't shot much 3 gun for a while but I think I recall how.

If you want to shoot at targets, say in doorways at 20 feet, fine with me.

You get to pick the distance too. If you want the scenarios to take place in a phonebooth, fine. Until we evolve and mutate so there's a hinge in our forearms, a standard stock is not a handicap at close range and tight quarters.

You pick ammo. Birdshot, from 9s to some of these lead 2 Short Magnums I have left from the 60s. Slugs, fine, buckshot, terrific.

And if I ever get some PGO fan ACTUALLY on the firing line and shoot this, my guess is I shall win by a rather large margin. And if we swap shotguns, my opponent will win by an equally impressive margin. The PGO is that much less than a stocked shotgun.


This isn't about egos, macho chest beating or braggadocio. It's about providing real world info to people who may need it as a matter of life or death.

A regular shotgun in competent hands is an awesome CQB weapon.

A PGO doesn't even come close.

And if I ever get some PGO fan ACTUALLY on the firing line and shoot this

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You never will.

Once you add in scoring for hits (PGO will lig due to poor follow up shots), transitioning/navigating in hallways/tight spaces (it really isn't hard with a regular stock, much less an m4 collapsible type) and times....the deck is stacked against PGOs.

Since all those are real world tests, I fail to see where the PGO has any real benefit other than fun (if that's your thing), perceived cool factor or storage.

I think the guy that had the special circumstance of self defense against Grizzly Bears,
was generally agreed upon as a proper application. While buckshot or slugs might be less than pleasant to fire, I would think it would hurt less than a bear mauling.

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I still don't see it as a good defense against bears. Let's look at it from the real world. The hiker packs a PGO for max firepower and minimum space. It is neatly stowed so the bear mauls you while you dig out. Maybe he has it slung over his shoulder. Now he can sling it around but the PGO isn't as controllable hip shooting and it is impossible to shoulder...that bear will need several shots. If it is slung over your shoulder, why not just carry an alaskan guide gun like a lever in 45-70 that is just as handy? Or a big bore side arm that is even more handy, faster to put on target and no less controllable?

I don't think we're off topic, I've just yet to hear a scenario where a PGO makes sense.

If there were a brick wall behind your enemy then you can blaze away and a pistol grip might be ok for selfdefense situations. Let's change it a bit, how about you have a loved one who is one or two feet to the right of the criminal, would you still want to blast away with the pistol grip? My guess is most people would say no? It's not that you can't do it, it's just I think it will be more accurate to shoot when shoulder mounted.

I was affraid you would take that personal. And as much as I would like to see some true experts sprinting in their nighty to make a point.Or standing there in said nighty telling me I want this, and I dont want that. I think the point is the shotgun is already a range challenged weapon, why add to it with a pistol grip. I stated on another thread that I thought a 24" barrel was best, I hope you didn't invision that on a PGO. I think something on the order of a skeet gun or turkey gun would be about perfect. If you go back and study the original reasons shotguns get chosen as patrol weapons or guard weapons it has more to do with economics price of gun, compared to other choices of weapons, or politicians concerns with image to the public. Compared to subguns/automatic rifles.Effectiveness is ,sadly, about the last concern with anyone in purchasing. I would rather teach someone to shoot shotguns over about anything else. I agree its easier. I didn't understand your challege COF being a term I was unfamiliar with. I'm thinking if El Presidente starts with guns on the table, back to table, targets (3), at 10yds, and the standard double tap to each. Your going to need a stopwatch to determine the winner, that puts it in the competition, and competitive was all I was saying.

Gun'n'More
I'll take you up on your offer
You come to my house, with your shotgun, yell for me to come out, and I get first shot,
I'll even use my 'HD/hiking gun'
it's just a lil ol mossy 20ga, with a 20' barrel and bantam stock..
See the thing about PGS that you haven't though of, is..
you have one shot, I'll have 7 cause, working the action while maintaining your aim doesn't work,
you end up with spray and pray.

and if you want to be an idiot and offer to be shot, well, I get first shot.
For serious work, I prefer a serious gun, not something out of a hollywood movie.

AND please, don't even think of taking that thing in the woods, I'm sure the bear, that your now not concerned about, will be happy to eat you. Brains are always the first defense.

D Adams, I think it would be fun to experiment with.

Well, I can see I'm clearly in over my head on this one. The subject of follow up shots has reared its ugly head. With all shotguns one of the things, to strive for design wise, is balance, pointability. To the guy that tells me a riot gun with 8 rounds in the mag is speedy or in any way balanced. I would have to say the only way to get that lively "between the hands balance" with 8 shots is with a Pistol Grip Only(see its all pretty much between the hands) or
adding a pound and a half to the buttstock.

But the good news is if your happen to be present at a corner store/liquor store/drive by shooting , and BG has PGO,you have only to pace off beyond 25 paces to be safe. But I wouldn't try to shoot in self defense as the experts agree your in almost no danger.

I have experimented with the PGO shotgun and arrived at some conclusions.

• It won't shoot alongside a shotgun with a stock
• It isn't useless, either
• Reduced recoil buck is the way to go
• A birdshead grip is easier on your hand than the other sorts

Perhaps I'll do a writeup with video at some point. I'm not sure the matter would be altogether believable without video. There are a couple of methods that allow you to make the most of the gun, shooting from eye level without getting clouted by the recoiling gun. These methods are not altogether obvious, so for now I'll just say 'don't try this at home.'