Mossberg Just in Case at the Range

You'd be crazy to stand in a doorway at 20' and feel confident I couldn't hit you.
What more of a real world test do you want?

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In that case, a slingshot or hickory bow should be all that anyone needs to defend their home. Both are accurate and very deadly inside 20'. Just because a stocked shotgun beats a PGO in nearly every category, we should still buy and use them? I don't get it... I put PGO shotguns in the same group as .22 pistols for self defense. If you have one, it will work, but don't go and buy one if you have any other choices.

you will NOT be able to shoot high brass/magnum loads in that gun as is, and not hurt yourself. get a full stock on it; i had the Breacher model, and i bought a cheap AR styled stock from ATI for less than $50, and it made a world of difference.

I can tell you hiking through the woods with that thing (JIC) swing around like in the picture isnt gonna be fun.

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But you think a full size Remington 870 would be?

I think the most of you read the thread and couldn't wait to hammer someone for liking a PGO shotgun. He didn't say this is the end all. He said he didnt feel so negative about them after shooting one.

Um, YEAH
here's my PERSONAL experience

No JIC tube on long walks
BUT
I have carried an AT4, filled with enough concrete to make sure it 'feels' loaded.
they aren't that heavy
But they tend to be rather cumbersome, especially when your going through trees

And finally, I'd rather carry a slung firearm (lots of experience WITH THAT)
than some gun in a canister, that you have to shuck your pack, unscrew

OOPS
sorry the bear ate you...
better luck next time.

I'm not knocking someone for having one, just don't tell me that they are the end all of shotguns.
or that I should pay more for a 'SHTF END OF THE WORLD' shotgun that comes in it's own burial tube.
I think they made that gun for boats, and I believe that once upon a time it even came with flares etc. in the kit.
some genius figured that you could sell it to the survivalist/zombie crowd TOO, and the rest is history.

The other thing - I am certain that with a minimum amount of knowledge one could assemble a comparable kit with better tools. Go with a used Mossberg or Remington and you might even come in under the same budget but with better stuff.

I don't own a PG shotgun or even a standard stocked pump, but I'd love to see the results of head to head competition between the two. I hope someone takes Dave up on his offer.
Who knows... I might even learn something useful!

And last, can we please knock off the "Fine then, I'm right and I know it. If you disagree, stand there and let me shoot you to prove how right I am" BS? It makes us as gun owners look like a bunch of immature whiners who enjoy threatening each other. Besides, you wouldn't shoot at someone just for disagreeing with you anyhow. And if you would, you deserve to be locked in a cage for a decade or two. So please guys, have a little more class than that.

But you think a full size Remington 870 would be?

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Actually yeah. They are surprisingly quick with just a bead. I don't see where it would be any slower than a PGO when swinging from slung position, assuming you are carrying it properly on a good swing with good mounts. I've killed many birds that I scared out of the brush by slinging it around and pumping, with an 18" barrel which means I had to get on the bird quick.

I would like to say first I have never been a member of SWAT. So its just possible I'm talking out my ___. But I think the first guy on the entry team/conga line, we'll call him 1, carries a PGO. Don't get excited, the only reason he does is to blow door knobs and hinges. What I have seen of training, instructs to shoot down at a 45 degree angle to avoid, pinging juniors kid with a shotgun propelled doorknob. I think then he transistions to a handgun,and is preceded through the door by 2 and 3. Does number 1change to a handgun, because a PGO is inferior? A PGO loaded with breaching rounds only is inferior? Or because thats the way he trains?
How does the PGO compare to full stock shotgun for throwing over your shoulder, as first step to handgun transition?

I can see an advantage to a pistol grip only for door breaching. It's a specialized tool. With a narrow application. Same reason some come with a saw tooth muzzle attachment, or standoff to avoid setting off a gun plugged with door. Do any of the subsequent guys 4 thru 6 carry a full stock shotgun?
I don't know, maybe one of you SWAT guys could chime in.

In a strange coincidence I also had an oportunity, over Memorial Day weekend, to fire an 8 shot Mossberg Maverick and you guessed it PGO. He is a neighbor of my brothers, and keeps one as protection on his property in Oklahoma. His question was related to gun failures we were able to trace to some swelled shells. His practice target was a gallon milk jug at about 20 yards, and down on about a 40 degree incline, towards a little creek. I fired 2 shells, both bird shot, both connected. It proved nothing except the other box of shells were fine.

I wish I lived closer to Dave to accept his challenge. Not because I think he's wrong. Not because I think I can beat him. Only to show that the advantages with either gun, depends a lot on the application. I have brucitus in my left shoulder, so working the slide in either case, will hurt the same.
If I was to buy a plane ticket from Kansas to Maryland, rent a car and motel room, buy a PGO, and 2 cases of shells for practice and 1 for actual test. I think I could give him a run for his money. I'm sure it would be fun trying.
But you know that even if I won, you wouldn't change your mind. In the last couple weeks I have found Dave to be a fair, and mostly impartial moderator.I also know Dave feels a responsibility to give the best advice, advice that could result in someone being in the wrong place with the wrong gun. In that I absolutely agree. And that is probably a good enough reason to trump all others.

i dont think the canister is meant to be a quick deploy way to carry. I think its a water proof container to be used to get the goods to camp dry or to be left in the trunk.

The opening post points out his BIL bought a pistol grip PG shotgun against his advice.

Actual shooting convinced the OP the PG was not as bad as he expected it to be.

So everbody wants to hammer the guy for saying something half-way nice about a PG shotgun.

Years ago I bought a "bargain" shotgun with buttstock and optional PG. Firing from the shoulder with the buttstock, I had to remember to bump the forearm forward to feed properly, which is counter intuitive to me. With the PG a push-forearm/pull-handgrip hold was natural to me and also assured positive feed. So that gun wears a PG now and also fits unobtrusively between the bed and nightstand. It took about ten hours personal "gunsmithing" and several sessions in the field, hundreds of skeet rounds, and dozens of buckshot and slug before I was confident with that PG shotgun. I would not recommend a PG shotgun as a first shotgun or as an only shotgun, but as a secondary weapon. The practice required to be proficient is more than with a traditional shotgun. I would always give the edge to the shoulder-fired shotgun on accurate placement, but honestly at the end of a session of 25 number 7 1/2, ten buckshot and five Win SuperX 1 oz slugs, the recoil was not bothering me as much as it would have been with a shoulder-fired 12ga.

That said, last time I took a shotgun camping on my uncle's property it was a Baikal double, full stock, 20" barrel side-by-side with carry sling.

Bluntly the PG shotgun fills a niche for situations where the alterative, due to space or discretion, would be no shotgun. If the bargain pump I bought functioned for me from the shoulder, it would be wearing a buttstock. If it had been a M500 Mariner it would defintely have a buttstock. But there is a niche for the PG shotgun, and some folks who try them do and will find that the case against PG shotguns has often been overstated.

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The PGO (pistol grip only from the factory, nonconcealable shotgun but not designed to be fired from the shoulder) is a legal oddity, listed on the federal firearms transaction form 4473 as "other weapon" with a 21+ age limit.

Personally I would recommend a conventional shotgun (nonconcealable weapon designed to be fired from the shoulder with a 18+ age limit on the 4473) with an alternate pistol grip. Thus if/when you get disenchanted with the PG you have a buttstock to switch back to.

If you install a buttstock on a PGO, you have re-designed it as a shoulder weapon and it is no longer a PGO "other weapon".

If I am ever in Maryland, I am going to take Dave up on his offer. I hate PGO shotguns, but I am a fierce competitor especially when someone says it cannot be done. I will give it my all for the PGO fans because unfortunately, I dont think a PGO fan will ever do it unless they want their pride hurt.

Alright I've slept on it.
I agree, for 80% of applications, the full stock shot gun, will be more effective than PGO.
I do not agree, the Pistol Grip Only is useless.( I assumed by pistol grip only, we meant as reguards to butt stock. With a standard, or horizontal fore grip.) I think the vertical fore grip is stupid also. And my mind is made up, you wont change it, unless....... it SWIVELS!
thats something worth looking into.

I do not agree, the Pistol Grip Only is useless.

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You should probably be aware that anyone in this section of the forum who even remotely intimates that *maybe* a PGO shotgun *could possibly* used in a self defense scenario effectively gets flamed off the thread.

It's been rehashed ad nauseum. Just lay off it and let Dave M- sleeping dogs lie.

Glad you had fun at the range. The wife is always badgering me for one of those, too. She says it'd be a blast, quite literally.

I personally have zero use for a PGO shotgun and could never even see myself owning one unless of course it came at such a bargain price I could not say no and even then I would right away find a replacement butt stock for it to make it more to MY standards.
But at the end of the day or better said,barrel, it still is a shotgun and even in it's limited role could wreck havoc on a bad guys day.
What I wonder is why the makers have come up with it in the first place.
Perhaps the marketing guys were drinking with the design engineers and this idea got hatched into being along with all that other weighty tactical stuff people now want to hang onto a shotgun.

unless....... it SWIVELS!

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Really? Explain that one. I'm curious about that. I'm not doubting you, I just want to hear the reasoning.

When I'm transitioning between targets, I'm using the offhand to drive the barrel onto the target. It seems to me that if my driving point pivots, I'd be losing finesse. It just seems counter-intuitive to how I use a vfg. I could be wrong, wouldn't be the 1st time.

I'm not a fan of VFG's, either. I have one on my AR, but it is one of those grip-pod uncle sam issue units that was given to me by a friend. When I'm not using the bipod function for plinking, I'm just using it as a handstop.

For the unwashed what's a VFG??

But you think a full size Remington 870 would be?

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Absolutely. I've carried full size 500's in an AK Sportsman backpack scabbard many times for fishing and hiking. They tote easier than a large handgun. To draw you reach over and grab the corner of the stock, then just pull it out. The JIC holder is just a mail tube with a strap. It's going to bump around and a speed draw is not very practical.

For the unwashed what's a VFG??

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Vertical Fore-Grip

The approach I take to the PGO shotgun, or any firearm for that matter, is to investigate ways to use it, looking to find out how I can get the best out of it. If the PGO's best isn't good enough, one may consider alterations, such as screwing a shoulder stock onto it.

The role of the PGO setup is where minimizing bulk is more important than other factors. An example is the door busting entry gun. Since locks and hinges are usually shot at very, very short range, accuracy is not a problem.

I think the reason the PGO attachment still exists, despite the availability of folding buttstocks, is the folder is sort of bulky, and for some purposes in the way. Often one will see a registered SBS/AOW with a pistol grip, which means someone was really, really determined to get that shotgun into a briefcase.

The idea here is an old one, witness the lupara type, or the pistol blunderbuss.

The idea is maximum blast in minimum bulk. If the idea were entirely useless it would have gone away by now. To say (as I already did) that this sort of thing won't shoot alongside a shotgun with a stock on it is true. But it will shoot, and has sometimes proved effective.

I know i won't get any takers, but I have no problem with setting up a couple stages of fire here in CA. bring your shotgun and gear, and we can use a semi-auto rifle as a control.

I think the reason the PGO attachment still exists

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It exists because the pint sized shotgun is a mythical weapon...it is the Excalibur of the gun hype world. Well that and the magic 50 caliber.

People always seem to view a small shotgun in a magical light. Make it smaller and more compact and it becomes the ultimate weapon to many, despite there being better options in the same size.

Don't believe me? A few years ago someone drew up plans for a 410 gauge revolver with a short rifled barrel that could also fire 45 long colts. It makes for an awkward weapon that is a tad large to lug around. As a shotgun, well it leaves much to be desired and requires special shotgun shells to even get any type of respectable velocity. Despite all this, it sold like crazy ever since it was first introduced...so much that now the ever so famous S&W is cashing in on the crazy little revolver's hype.

In the years I've spent shooting 3 Gun, I've seen exactly one competitor show up at a match with a PGO shotgun. This was a match held at a club heavily into cowboy action shooting, and they used the same targets and general distances. In other words, the targets were generously large and quite close and the stages required navigation through tightly-quartered buildings; just the circumstances that PGO shotgun fans claim are ideal for a PGO shotgun.

Yet I still managed to come out ahead, as did a number of other shooters. This despite the fact that I run a 24 inch Benelli with a full stock.

If your idea that "adequate for defense" constitutes an ability to hit a target at 20 feet under ideal circumstances, then I suppose a PGO shotgun is all that you really need.

But if it can be unequivocally demonstrated that a proper shotgun is not only faster to employ, more accurate, easier to control, and has much, much faster split times, why would you even bother arming yourself with something that puts you at a disadvantage?

You should probably be aware that anyone in this section of the forum who even remotely intimates that *maybe* a PGO shotgun *could possibly* used in a self defense scenario effectively gets flamed off the thread.

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No one has ever claimed that a PGO shotgun isn't still a firearm capable of delivering a deadly blow. The debate has always been over what configuration is more effective. Most PGO shotgun advocates get hung up on the fact that a load of buckshot delivered on target will effectively end hostilities. The problem is that the thinking stops there and goes no further. There's never consideration to how quickly one can get that round on target, nor how effectively one can cycle the action while staying on target, or transitioning to a new target.

Furthermore, never have I seen a "serious" PGO advocate attempt to even test his notions of shotgun effectiveness under timed circumstances.

I threw in Swiveling Fore Grip in as a variable partly for Ss &Gs, partly because it rhymes with sniveling --- ----, I was talking to on another thread.

I seem to think there is a general consensus that pumps are more reliable,more able to work with varying ammo, and generally quick enough for gunfighting long as it has a stock. But wholely un suited to shotgun GAMES. It does not track, for me.

I also wonder if there is the same gun cost/snobbery with SD/HD guns? It seems like there is more tolerance for individual choice, of weapon ,than clay buster. Does that seem a little odd to anyone else?

I'm sorry it seems I've lost my focus....were we discussing most expensive riot guns, or designer shooting bags. No I got it Pistolgrip Skeet guns....I'm going to go take some asprin.

It's important to avoid a straw man argument here. If you have someone who says the PGO is just as good as a shotgun with a buttstock, or even preferable, where either could be used, then his case is easily refuted. But what if that is not the case being made?

Are there situations where the buttstock is in the way sufficiently to make the shotgun clumsy or impractical to use? If so, the question becomes whether it is better to dispense with the buttstock or do without the shotgun altogether. That is a different discussion.