9MM confusion/ penetration/ barriers

REAPER4206969 said:

Three inches is not generally lethal. Three inches on a fatty is not even at the muscle yet.

You need 12" minimum, preferably 15" to insure lethality at all angles.

The next time you're at Wal-Mart, look around and you'll see why 18" has recently became desirable. Pretty soon we'll be carrying hard cast solids...

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Agreed. There are set requirements for penetration (12" to 18") for a reason.

Why you ask? Well, if you happen to run into a BG who is 6'7 and weighs 270 lbs, you are going to need all of that penetration to get through the fatty tissue into the vital organs.

BG's aren't four foot tall paper targets at a square range; sure, they can be 5'10, 165 lbs, but they can also be 6'7, 270 lbs! You simply can't know.

the FBI didn't set 12-18 inches as ideal because they anticipated their agents being assaulted by fat people.


they did it for several reasons, some of which are most of the time attackers have their arms up (often clutching a weapon), and the bullet must penetrate their limbs before striking the abdomen.

another reason is, RARELY do bullets hit the heart or other vitals at a perfect straight angle, or the shortest route.

shooting someone from the sides, through their arms/shoulders etc. or into the abdomen at the chest at an angle requires good penetration.

That is the reason for the 12" minimum.

Fatties caused the increase to 15"-18".

^^LMAO they did not! get outa here

They totally did.

Fatties ruin everything.

maybe they'll ban together and sue mcdonalds again lol

Human anatomy in medical school: Heart/lungs 2 inches below surface.






Human anatomy in shooting class:

This is a very common shape of men nowadays. Imagine being attacked by this guy and having to shoot through his belly at an angle, such as if you are on the ground and he's standing over you. That is a lot of bullet stopping fat, then muscle, then bone, then strong organs like the heart for your bullet to penetrate.

Shooting pregnant males is unethical.

AZ Hawkeye said:

Agreed. There are set requirements for penetration (12" to 18") for a reason.

Why you ask? Well, if you happen to run into a BG who is 6'7 and weighs 270 lbs, you are going to need all of that penetration to get through the fatty tissue into the vital organs.

BG's aren't four foot tall paper targets at a square range; sure, they can be 5'10, 165 lbs, but they can also be 6'7, 270 lbs! You simply can't know.

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Nowhere in this post did I claim the FBI set the standards in response to having to shoot "fat people." I never came close to saying that.

This what I said: "There are set requirements for penetration (12" to 18") for a reason."

I then explained that penetration is your friend if you have to shoot through fatty tissue.

You guys are reading way too much into this.

KodiakBeer said:

Human anatomy in medical school: Heart/lungs 2 inches below surface.

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This is great and all if the BG lines square up with you and you don't have to shoot through his arm/shoulder and a wall or a car door or auto glass, etc., etc.

Who said you won't be lying under the BG, or he's not taking shots at you whilst hiding behind a low wall?

Imagine being attacked by this guy and having to shoot through his belly at an angle, such as if you are on the ground and he's standing over you.

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I think I'd shoot him in the chest before allowing him to knock me down and stand over me, failing that I'd shoot him in forehead. But really, since I could outrun anybody with that shape, I doubt the necessity of shooting at all.

Human beings are not bullet proof. Their organs are just below the surface. Shoot them until they fall down or turn away and then stop shooting them.

KodiakBeer said:

I think I'd shoot him in the chest before allowing him to knock me down and stand over me, failing that I'd shoot him in forehead. But really, since I could outrun anybody with that shape, I doubt the necessity of shooting at all.

Human beings are not bullet proof. Their organs are just below the surface. Shoot them until they fall down or turn away and then stop shooting them.

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You assume that he's not hiding and takes you by surprise by tackling you or trapping you in an alley because you tried to hide in the wrong place (or insert self defense scenario here)

Anything can happen...

(Did you hear about the cop who shot a man in COM seventeen times with .40 S&W before the man finally succumbed to his wounds?)

This is great and all if the BG lines square up with you and you don't have to shoot through his arm/shoulder and a wall or a car door or auto glass, etc., etc.

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Shooting people through walls and car doors is called murder, not self defense. If your bullet is deflected by an arm or shoulder, keep shooting. People need to worry more about their shooting skills than their choice of bullet. Technology won't trump poor shooting.

KodiakBeer said:

Shooting people through walls and car doors is called murder, not self defense. If your bullet is deflected by an arm or shoulder, keep shooting. People need to worry more about their shooting skills than their choice of bullet. Technology won't trump poor shooting.

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Lol... No, it's not.

Example: You are in your house, and a BG has broken in. He begins shooting at you with a rifle/handgun/shotgun etc., through the door to your room. You wouldn't return fire?

Example: A man with a gun is rapidly approaching your car in an attempt to carjack you. To shoot him, you either have to shoot through the door or the glass of your window...

Shooting people through walls and car doors is called murder, not self defense.

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Really? So any assailant shooting from behind cover cannot be fired upon?

(Did you hear about the cop who shot a man in COM seventeen times with .40 S&W before the man finally succumbed to his wounds?)

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That is pretty much what one would expect. It's only in Hollywood that bullets are an instantly fatal poison that immediately shuts down a human being like turning off a light switch.

Handguns are pathetic weapons. If they weren't, people would be out doing their elk hunting with .40's. Aim and keep shooting until the threat falls down or runs away. He may or may not expire after doing so.

Example: You are in your house, and a BG has broken in. He begins shooting at you with a rifle/handgun/shotgun etc., through the door to your room. You wouldn't return fire?

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Yeah, that happens all the time...

No, you're right, assailants always present themselves from a frontal shot and even point to their vitals.

You really think someone is just going to stand there and let you shoot at them?

Shooting into, out of and through automobiles is common. As well as assailants using concealment such as walls, doors, furniture, Etc.

I sure hope you never get jury duty.

KodiakBeer said:

Yeah, that happens all the time...

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Yeah, and self defense situations happen all the time...

This is a very common shape of men nowadays

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yep, that's pretty much the standard physique in MI--the fattest state in the country

REAPER4206969 said:

Shooting into, out of and through automobiles is common. As well as assailants using concealment such as walls, doors, furniture, Etc.

.

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I see this line of thinking all the time. I may just have selective memory problems, but I don't recall reading about that many non LEO shootings involving a barrier. Most seem to involve a home break in and direct shots at the bad guy. Sometimes they will shoot through the front door. That's the primary type of barrier shooting I read about. While I'm sure they exist, I don't recall reading about many incidents where non LEOs shoot through car parts. At most it's through the side window and that's not much of a barrier.

I'm not disagreeing that the guy may be fat or just andre the giant. I carry a 9mm or a 45. You guys act that only a hit on a vital organ hurts. A single shot to a big ole fat gut is going to make someone think twice. And if it doesn't I have 6 more right behind it. I use top of the line ammo as well but holy crap, ammo a penetrates 10 inches and ammo b penetrates 11. I don't see that becoming a subject worth beating to death.

I may just have selective memory problems, but I don't recall reading about that many non LEO shootings involving a barrier. Most seem to involve a home break in and direct shots at the bad guy. Sometimes they will shoot through the front door. That's the primary type of barrier shooting I read about. While I'm sure they exist, I don't recall reading about many incidents where non LEOs shoot through car parts. At most it's through the side window and that's not much of a barrier.

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Are all civilian shootings that well documented?