No guns for Muslims, Liberals?

^ True, however google 1964 Civil Rights Act. He cannot behave that way legally under the law.

By the way, GBR!!

I'm fairly certain that many people here are misinterpreting existing anti-discrimination laws.

Notably, the Civil Rights Act of 1964, Title II, only prohibits racial, religious, etc discrimination against customers by "public accommodations" which include hotels, restaurants, etc, but does not appear to cover firearms trainers. If there is caselaw to show that it does, I would be most interested. Title VII prohibits employment discrimination, but that's an entirely different issue. State law may of course prohibit such conduct; notably California has stricter anti-discrimination laws. However, discriminating against customers doesn't appear to to be generally illegal in Texas.

However, he may well be violating requirements that the state imposes certified instructors, and so may lose that certification. Are there any Texas instructors here who can comment on this?

HGUNHNTR said:

If I wanted to rent a house but you showed up in a Sarah Palin T-Shirt I couldn't refuse to rent to you based on political beliefs...even though I would want too.

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I believe you can. "Political Ideology" is not a protected class according the the fair housing act (1968). Things you cannot discriminate on the basis of are "race, color, religion, sex and national origin..., disability and familial status."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_housing

All that said, Mr. Keller is still despicable.

Do you have any idea the number of Muslims in the US military right now? Go ahead and call them Jihadists and see where that gets you.

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No idea as to how many, but some were and probaly still are. Point, the Ft Hood shooter and I cannot remember details, but was their not a shooting in Little Rock at a recruting shooting along these lines.

I spent 10 years active duty in the Air Force, and seven in reserves, and honestly the few I have known I would not trust behind my back.

^well it is between 4k and 12k. Way to perpetuate the stereotype.

THR is not an appropriate place to have ideological discussions about which religions or ethnicities are suitable (or not) for the RKBA, nor for discussions about US anti-discrimination laws. Further discussions on those topics will be deleted and infractions issued.

The question raised by the OP would seem to be whether it is reasonable for the RKBA to be denied to a specific religion or ethnicity within the US.

Certainly, the Founding Fathers that debated the RKBA and authored our Constitution did not believe that natural rights were specific to any ethnic or religious group, and I concur with that assessment.

Two separate issues

First, is it "right" for this instructor to exclude all persons of a certain class (Obama voters or Muslims), rather than individuals he may have a specific concern about? My answer is no, it is not right.

Next, does he have a "right" to act on his prejudice in this way? The answer is apparently yes. People have the right to do all sorts of vile, immoral things. I've looked at the TX laws regarding instructors (including the section on revocation of certification), and in my non-expert opinon, until he is charged with some form of crime, they have no legal means of revoking his certification.

(It has already been pointed out that this instructor is not the only instructor in TX; his refusal to train whomever he chooses denies nobody anything.)

Sorry but I can't believe people are supporting this idiot. I suppose he has a right to but it's like the Westboro Baptist Church protesting Soldiers funerals, morally detestable. Hopefully this will run his business into the ground. Islam is the 2nd biggest religion in the world and a few overzealous nut jobs give everyone a violent reputation. It's just bigoted stereotyping. Its not like liberals/people who voted for Obama are a radical fringe group either, as you know more people voted for him than anyone else.

Refusing paying customers of any kind, is economically unsound, but it's his business, and he can bear the consequences in the market.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964, is no more Constitutional than any gun control law and should not be wielded like a hammer against someone who's behavior you don't like.

Vote with your feet and dollars, but don't talk big about freedom and the 2nd amendment, and then run to the skirt tail of government when a private individual doesn't give you what you think your entitled to.

rbernie said:

THR is not an appropriate place to have ideological discussions about which religions or ethnicities are suitable (or not) for the RKBA, nor for discussions about US anti-discrimination laws. Further discussions on those topics will be deleted and infractions issued.

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I'm maybe misunderstanding you here. But if THR takes any position--even one of refusing to take an official position-- other than of all races, religious, and ethnicities being suitable for the right to keep and bear arms, I don't believe I care to be a member here any longer. There is refusing to take a stand on a controversial position, and and there is refusing to take a stand on an issue that should be as uncontroversial as they come. This is the later.

If you're instead saying that this is the case, and that racial, ethnic, and religious discrimination with regards to RKBA is unambiguously inappropriate, and simply not up for discussion, than I apologize for my impertinence.

In my business I reserve the right to refuse service to anyone, and have at times.

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Yes, you do have the right to refuse service to anyone. But you cannot refuse service for any reason.

Crockett Keller said:

“If you are Muslim and will not pledge allegiance to the United States of America, I will not sell you any firearm or accessory.”

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This is where the trouble lays, and he can't hide behind the "I didn't sell it because I thought they were dangerous" FFL umbrella. It's bigotry, plain and clear. It may be his business, but his business hinges on the government licensing him to conduct it.

Originally Posted by Crockett Keller
“If you are Muslim and will not pledge allegiance to the United States of America, I will not sell you any firearm or accessory.”

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Add me to your do not sell list.

Unfortunately, the dealer is vocal to to the point where he becomes destructive to himself. He has cost himself business with individuals that do not agree with his sentiments and has perhaps put his personal safety in jeopardy from radicals that have nothing to do with the muslim faith.

On the other hand, he has voiced an opinion that many of us keep to ourselves. How many of us keep a slightly wider bearth when pass a woman wearing a Hijab over her head at the grocery store? How long would a male wearing a Kufi last at the last gun show you went to? Would anyone sell to him? Would you? I doubt many of us would, but we would decline to be so vocal. In fact, have you ever seen an individual wearing a Islamic head covering at a gun show?

I support the right to not sell to someone because I don't feel comfortable with that individual person, be it someone dressed in traditional middle eastern garments, a biker displaying his "colors" or a gang member with crip colors displayed. However, making a blanket statement covering everyone in a particular group is wrong.

Not making a sale and not giving the reason for doing so or giving a 'soft' reason (such as 'I changed my mind') is much different than saying why you refuse service to any group of folks.

I'll defend to the death his right to be as outspoken an idiot as he wants, makes it much easier for the rest of us who don't fit his world view to not give him money or business. I'm just thankful that Mr Keller is not the person keeping me from getting training I need to keep myself and my family safe.

Nothing like religion and politics to stir the pot! Just my .02, but the guy can believe whatever he wants and not serve anyone he doesn't want to. Just like folks who don't agree with him don't have to spend money with him.

Has anyone ever thought that this was a ploy on his part to drum up free publicity and business? Crazy like a fox, I tell ya.

He has cost himself business with individuals that do not agree with his sentiments...

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Maybe but unfortunately, and i'm ashamed as a Texan to say, he has probably gained more than he lost.

I believe that a private business owner should have the right to demonstrate his ignorance and stupidity as this guy has oh so well. But CHL courses are taught on behlaf of the state of TX via a program that uses tax money to operate so his license to do so should be revoked immediately.

I do wonder if a gun store owner discrimanted against christians because of the actions of the Branch Davidians or against right wingers because of Timothy Mcveigh or both because of Anders Breivik if attitudes about this story wouldn't be different.

What this idiot has done is given me an idea of teaching CHL courses advertised as a politics free environment. There is no better way to endanger our RKBA than to alienate people from the firearms community.

RS14,

You quoted what I had heard of regarding employment standards and discrimination. I believe that employment discrimination only applies to a certain size of employer. I am guessing the instructor is in the right as far as customer religious discrimination because he is not a public accomodation like a hotel, restaurant.

I dont agree with what this guy said but I do recognize that everyone has the right to say things foolishly and foolish is not a crime. Poor business decisions are usually not a crime either.

Political view discrimination does not seem to be regulated by the feds or a protected group either for employment or serving customers.

HGUNHNTR said:

He certainly can, he just cannot violate civil rights laws in the process.

If I wanted to rent a house but you showed up in a Sarah Palin T-Shirt I couldn't refuse to rent to you based on political beliefs...even though I would want too.

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But IF folks that wear Sarah Palin t-shirts had a well earned reputation for tearing up rent houses, you'd be a fool to rent it to them.

Kinda works that way for the types of folks he doesn't want to teach to shoot.

Open your mind too far and your brain will fall out. Happens to lots of over tolerant liberals. No offense intended.

Tully M. Pick said:

This is where the trouble lays, and he can't hide behind the "I didn't sell it because I thought they were dangerous" FFL umbrella. It's bigotry, plain and clear. It may be his business, but his business hinges on the government licensing him to conduct it.

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It is true that the power to license is the power to restrict, deny, and ultimately enslave.

According to some folks, the law requires us to train pilots who would crash planes into our offices and train shooting skills to those who would shoot us in the name of their religion. I just can't go there. So much for freedom.

I am intolerant toward any group (race, religion, creed, whatever) that has said it wants to kill me or enslave me to sharia law. So I guess I am just a bigot.

No offense intended. Really.

I think he was just playing to an audience and he is free to do so. It's called the first amendment.
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I see no difference in his refusing to do business with certain people and the signs you see at businesses saying "no shirt, no shoes, no service" and "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone".

Is he a racist? No. Is he a bigot? Sounds like it but most of us are in some way. Most of us also keep our mouth shut about it.

But CHL courses are taught on behlaf of the state of TX via a program that uses tax money to operate so his license to do so should be revoked immediately.

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Does he get any of that tax money?

One disturbing problem I see is that many seem to have forgotten that we also have a freedom to associate (and disassociate) with people we don't like, or who hold views that we find anathema.

Also absent is the concept of private property. Just because you offer to sell a product or offer a service from your private property, doesn't mean you are obliged to sell or serve every person in the country.

Federal, state, county and municipal government agencies can't discriminate. Period.

Private citizens on their own private property are not so obliged.

It's called a free society.

Do I agree with this guys blanket statement about who he will and will not serve? Certainly not! Are other private citizens free to boycott or picket his business? They certainly are!

But be very careful about crying to big brother to curtail the freedoms of your neighbors when you disagree with them... You may soon find 51% of the crowd pointing their fingers at you tomorrow and clammering for the gub'ment to sieze your property or curtail your freedom to make your livelihood.

Guess I can't make any judgements about him being racist until I hear directly from him, but thats pretty darned close to sounding like an outright bigot.

Should we force him to do business with people he doesn't want to do business with? NO.

Is this completely embarrassing and does it shed negative light on millions of gun owners? YES.

This is NOT going to help the public relations area of the gun crowd. Thanks buddy. :banghead::banghead::banghead:

Gun Geezer said:

But IF folks that wear Sarah Palin t-shirts had a well earned reputation for tearing up rent houses, you'd be a fool to rent it to them.

Kinda works that way for the types of folks he doesn't want to teach to shoot.

Open your mind too far and your brain will fall out. Happens to lots of over tolerant liberals. No offense intended.

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He is negligent in not also excluding them blacks and Mexicans as well. They have a well earned(sic) reputation for committing crime.

Sounds like Keller's mind is TOO open.

I think it's decidedly Un-American to deny service to someone because they don't share your politics.

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This is kinda my thought on things.

Now, It is his right to not teach Muslims, Blondes, Brunettes, White People, Black People, Chinese, Irish or whatever cranks his crank.
But at no point does someone having the right to do things make it the "right" thing to do.
Frankly, I would never do business with him. Neither do I do business with the gun store in Philomath, for similar reasons. And much like it is his right to whatever he wants in his private business, it is the right of all the people who disagree with him to not do business with him.
It sure is a PR problem, and I regret being lumped in with this guy, but ideally PR problems aren't what a Democracy is all about. As much as I find the concept of this guy thinking he believes in Democracy a tad sickening.