Checking for "hot" pistols?

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exchanging info like address and drivers license and posibly a check with your account number in todays world is a recipe for disaster

Name, address, drivers license, check account numbers: sounds like potential ID theft kit. I just paid a late bill by giving bank number and account number off the bottom of a check over the phone. It was my account. Wudda been nice to have had an account number with more money it. :evil:
 
You aren't going to jail over it, in almost any conceivable scenario -- as long as you really didn't have anything to do with the theft.

I wish that was always the case Sam1911.

I have a friend who purchased some equipment (not guns) for a very low price. He was assured they goods were from a bankrupt concern. They were not, they had been stolen from a going concern; this guy got charged with possession of stolen property, and they ultimately made it stick. The prosecution argued that a reasonable person "should have known" the equipment was hot owing to the sale price being ridiculously low (I'm paraphrasing the case of course, I was not in attendance).
 
Sam the disaster of which I speak is ID theft. If by chance the guy you are buying from happens to be a thief and has no problem giving you false info and taking yours you have become a victim X2.
I am all for putting criminals in a place that the sun doesn't shine but not at my expense.
I said
I'm not saying that keeping a log with some details of a transaction aren't relevant
By this I mean the sellers name as told to you, possibly a description, make and model + tags on car, address if you go to his house for the transaction and the place where you first noticed the offer to sell. All of these could be helpful but some may be incorrect just as a DL could be.
As private sellers and buyers we are not equipped to validate a persons ID nor evaluate their legal qualifications to buy or sell a gun so it is truly a buyer/seller beware and since many of my guns as I'm sure with others have never been checked as far as we know there is equal risk as a seller.
I have no problem with talking to the police and am all for getting the bad guys off the street.
I suspect that one of my formerly but legally transferred guns may have been of interest some yrs. ago since the guy I sold it to by way of his former employer was quite anxious to get info on its history from me. I never heard from authorities but suspect that he was able to connect all the historical dots to their satisfaction.
I hope our ability to buy, sell, trade amongst ourselves is not further restricted but I fear that movement is afoot both within and outside of our ranks, if someone offers a gun for an obscenely low price or an unusual quantity I recommend turning that info over to the authorities, that is just being a good citizen.
 
Local reality here in Dallas County.

The District Attorney says that that there is about a 2 % prosecution to arrest rate. The other 98 % either gets a walk or agrees to a reduced probationary sentence, complete with a bunch of verbal noises of regret.

Reality is that the DA's office was forced to cut expenses and some Asst DA's were 'let go'. I guess its politically better to state that some lawyers were 'let go' than inmates in the city lock-up were 'let go'.

No political wanna-be who aspires to the perks of Gov't Service with a reasonaable chance of success is gonna advocate increased taxes to pay for cops, lawyers, teachers, etc. Occasionally there are items of expense related to a 'River Walk' or a city owned downtown hotel. You get the idea.

Investigators can look into the allegations. It seems unlikely that puntative/remedial efforts will occur.

In your town or mine, city services still cost.

salty
 
but exchanging info like address and drivers license and posibly a check with your account number in todays world is a recipe for disaster.

I disagree that exchanging name, address, and DL number is a recipe for disaster. If the concern is future theft of firearms, one might argue that positive recorded identification might dissuade such activity. Certainly, the license could be fake, but it's a step I'm comfortable taking. I'm also not concerned that the information on my drivers license is (alone) useful for identity theft. In fact, in Washington Sate (where I used to live) if you know someones name and birthdate you can "calculate" their drivers license number with reasonable certainty. It's just not a piece of information which is particularly useful for identity theft purposes. If you add a social security number and an account number, perhaps, but a DL alone doesn't get you anywhere. Anywhere I've lived, face to face sales of goods is always cash and carry unless the transaction involves good friends. Whether it's a snowmobile, a set of snow tires or a handgun, it's cash and carry -- no checks.

In any case, I'm glad that whether or not to complete a bill of sale is my choice. If there were record keeping requirements in my state, I would work to change them. At the same time, if someone wants to trade with me I'm probably going to insist on a bill of sale. If he or she insists on not having a bill of sale, I respect that as a reasonable decision, however he or she will have to trade with someone else.
 
In NY here, a bill of sale is required, and even then all that is needed is names, addresses, and permit #'s, along with the #'s and make and model of handgun(s). I suppose getting a DL # would be of equal assurance in a non licensed state.
 
Every law enforcement agency I'm familiar with uses the NCIC (National Crime Information Center), which I'm pretty sure is a national database.

NICS does not contain every stolen item, even guns.

Social security and the IRS have national databases also.
 
I would just ask the friend if he would go the tho local police with you and get the numbers ran and if they come back ok pay him right there and while there do the registration which you will need to do at a police station anyway. But if they come back stolen they belong to him you havent paid for them so your not on the hook for buying stolen property thats how i have always done firearms deals with a private person. If they dont want to go to the staition you dont buy the gun.
 
I would just ask the friend if he would go the tho local police with you and get the numbers ran
As pointed out before, not many police departments will "run numbers" on a gun just for asking.

and if they come back ok pay him right there and while there do the registration which you will need to do at a police station anyway
WHAT registration? You register your guns...in Texas?
 
Lot of misconceptions and generalizations out there, take recommendations with a grain of salt.
 
this was when i was in Las Vegas where pistols have to be registered but it never hurts to try to go to the station and see if they will run them
 
Sounds like your question's been answered a few times, OP. You said they guy is willing to give you the serial numbers, which means you don't have to risk losing them if they are stolen.

Get the serial numbers, call the local PD or sheriff's office, ask them to run the SN. If its not stolen, great. If it is, you don't own it yet anyway, so you have nothing to lose even if the LEO tells you to turn it in.

"Sorry, I don't own it. Was considering buying it from a private seller."
 
Get the serial numbers, call the local PD or sheriff's office, ask them to run the SN. If its not stolen, great. If it is, you don't own it yet anyway, so you have nothing to lose even if the LEO tells you to turn it in.

And if the officer says, "We don't do serial number checks on guns that aren't involved in some official police buisness, and never on guns that aren't in the posession of an officer..." you're really out nothing except your time.

Back to square one.
 
well i was thinking of buying a rifle off a guy in tx and i wanted to run the numbers i called the sheriff to see if they would and they said just come by with it
 
NICS does not contain every stolen item, even guns.

Social security and the IRS have national databases also.
NICS doesn't contain any stolen gun data. NCIC contains data from every stolen gun that is entered into the NCIC system. But if someone didn't bother to report it, or doesn't have a serial #, the officer didn't bother to put it in the report or enter the information into NCIC then it obviously won't contain the information.
 
Good faith purchaser for value means if you buy a stolen gun, not knowing or having reason to know its stolen, AND you pay value for it - it is now yours and trumps anybody else (the original owner). So if you pay 400 for a gun that new costs 1200, it is yours. If you pay $50, then you ought to know its stolen and ur title does not command.


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I am here: http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=27.358316,-98.124750
Waste not want not. :)
 
Good faith purchaser for value means if you buy a stolen gun, not knowing or having reason to know its stolen, AND you pay value for it - it is now yours and trumps anybody else (the original owner). So if you pay 400 for a gun that new costs 1200, it is yours.
:scrutiny: So if you've paid a reasonable price for a gun, and the numbers get run someday and come up as stolen, you don't have to forfeit the gun? That's the first time I've ever heard of that.
 
but exchanging info like address and drivers license and posibly a check with your account number in todays world is a recipe for disaster.
I won't give the info up and I really don't expect others to either, if we are talking a storefront business then that's a whole other matter.

What's the difference between giving an individual a check and using one to pay for something at a storefront or through the mail?

In the latter case, no telling how many different individuals will have access to it. Never seen much of a security check for hiring cashiers.
 
Good faith purchaser for value means if you buy a stolen gun, not knowing or having reason to know its stolen, AND you pay value for it - it is now yours and trumps anybody else (the original owner). So if you pay 400 for a gun that new costs 1200, it is yours.

LMAO!!!! You wish!
 
It goes back to common law. You know "possession is 9/10". The police may grab it as evidence, but I will get it back. For them to keep it or return it to its original owner would be "stealing it twice.". That's the rationale behind the law. I don't "wish". I make the argument and thru persistence will win. It's the law.


Mark, esquire
 
I make the argument and thru persistence will win. It's the law.
Do you know of instances where this has actually happened?

Or are you presenting an argument you intend to try if ever faced with this yourself?
 
baylorattorney said:
The police may grab it as evidence, but I will get it back.....It's the law.

Not around here. It's covered in paragraph 2b below. To recover my stolen gun as the rightful owner would cost me storage charges and ad fees at the most. You don't get anything. Good luck trying to claim that the cops stole it from you.

You have any legel references for your claims?

Louisiana law on disposition of recovered stolen property:

http://legis.la.gov/lss/lss.asp?doc=89575

RS 33:2333 - Stolen, seized, or relinquished property; disposition


§2333. Stolen, seized, or relinquished property; disposition

A. The provisions of this Section shall apply to all stolen property recovered by any police department and all property lawfully seized by or voluntarily relinquished to any police department the disposition of which is not otherwise provided for by local and state law.

B. All property described in Subsection A of this Section shall be disposed of as follows:

(1) Contraband shall be delivered to the district court of the judicial district in which the police department is located, to be disposed of in accordance with the provisions of R.S. 15:41.

(2)(a) Noncontraband shall not be disposed of prior to the lapse of one hundred fifty days. If the property has not been claimed by the owner within that time, the police department shall dispose of the property as provided in this Subsection. The first disposition of such property shall be that all appropriate and usable property shall be given to nonprofit youth facilities or to any other nonprofit organization. Thereafter, all remaining usable property shall be disposed of by publicly advertised auction held in compliance with relevant laws governing public auctions. If any property is determined to be unusable, it shall be sold to a salvage company or destroyed.

(b) However, no property shall be disposed of until the department has advertised twice within thirty days in a newspaper published in the municipality that the police department has within its possession the property to be disposed of. The advertisement shall describe the property and shall call upon the owner to present himself, prove ownership, and pay the accrued storage charges, as well as the cost of advertisement.
(3) Repealed by Acts 2003, No. 981, §2, eff. July 1, 2003.

Added by Acts 1977, No. 641, §1. Acts 1985, No. 537, §1; Acts 1999, No. 828, §1; Acts 2003, No. 981, §§1 and 2, eff. July 1, 2003.

Only exception is if you're a pawnshop, then it's a slightly different matter. Then it's covered by RS 37:1805(g):

G. When a pawnbroker acquires a thing the possession or ownership of which was obtained by a pledgor through fraudulent means, the pawnbroker shall be obligated to return the thing to the owner for the same amount that the pledgor would have been able to redeem such thing.
 
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It's the basic common law principle of "innocent owners defense" aka "good faith purchaser for value." that is the basis of the argument. Thing is nobody wishes to make the argument bc they just want the whole thing to go away. Also, many a times police will use intimidating and misleading statements to the innocent owner to where the innocent owner gives up his title to the gun and allows it to be forfeited. or police and public simply don't know the law and it's proper application.

google "innocent owner defense" or good faith purchaser for value, and you will learn that all types of property come under its umbrage. Guns are considered property.

Bottom line is if you think a gun is stolen you shouldn't buy it because you will lose it BC you knew or had suspicions it was stolen regardless of the value you pay. This defense only applies to the truly "innocent" and maybe that is why it is so strange or foreign. :)
 
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Not around here. It's covered in paragraph 2b below. To recover my stolen gun as the rightful owner would cost me storage charges and ad fees at the most. You don't get anything. Good luck trying to claim that the cops stole it from you.

You have any legel references for your claims?

Here is a kentucky forfeiture statute which states in the first line the state owes a duty to return confiscated property to innocent owners..(c) Subject to the duty to return confiscated firearms and ammunition to innocent owners pursuant to this section, all firearms and ammunition confiscated by a state or local law enforcement agency, all firearms ordered forfeited by a court, and all abandoned firearms and ammunition coming into the custody of a state or local law enforcement agency and not retained for official use shall be transferred to the Department of Kentucky State Police for disposition as provided by KRS 16.220. The transfer shall occur not more than ninety (90) days after the abandonment of the firearm or ammunition to the law enforcement agency or not more than ninety (90) days after its confiscation, unless a court requires the firearm or ammunition for use as evidence, in which case it shall be transferred to the Department of Kentucky State Police not more than ninety (90) days following the order of forfeiture by the court or after the court returns the firearm or ammunition from use as evidence. Prior to the sale of any firearm or ammunition, the law enforcement agency shall make a bona fide attempt to determine if the firearm or ammunition to be sold has been stolen or otherwise unlawfully obtained from an innocent owner...

"Innocent owner" is the key term here.

I've been doing this 17 years and I still have a practice to run, else I'd research some more for you. I definitely don't want to argue in here, I just want to share what I can and learn what I havent. But I know this much, innocent owners have a superior title than anybody else regarding the property they purchased in good faith and paid value for. That's a rule of law. Goodnight


Mark, esquire
 
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