Missing the Third Generation

I know I would do my part, instead of having to resort to Gun Shows and the random LGS trade-in.

Gander is always good for a laugh, but if they can sell their Used stock for what I see them often ask , S&W could certainly sell enough new mfg.

I've had my fair share of auto loaders over the years from Colt, SA, S&W all to include 1911's from both and even Glocks but none have been as reliable as my old 4506. Having bought it some 21 years ago it's been the only 45...auto for that matter, that's never given me a minutes trouble. No failures of any sort in feeding, ejecting or extracting. I can't say that about any others I've had. I think it's the best pistol S&W ever made but I doubt we'll ever see the likes of a 3rd Gen Smith again.

Wonder how much S&W would be selling them for if they reintroduced them. I bought my 5904 new back in 1989, and I think it ran me around $425(I'd have to dig out my receipt to be sure about that though).

I also miss them being a standard production item.

I remember being a lot less than enthused when we were first told we'd be turning in our Magnum revolvers for the new 5903's.

I'd never particularly cared for the 1st or 2nd gen models, and I didn't see why the 3rd gen guns would be any different.

Well, that was more than 20 years ago, as a young firearms instructor. Also before I'd become an armorer and had been able to observe how well a few hundred guns stood up to use & abuse of mostly indifferent cops. I've had the chance to meet and listen to the experiences of instructors and armorers from a lot of other agencies over that time, as well.

I took the opportunity to attend my 4th armorer class for the 3rd gen guns last year, just to keep up on the improvements they've been making in the guns. It's been interesting to see that the company has continued to make some occasional design and manufacturing changes in the remaining models, even though the line is primarily only made for established LE/Gov customers in recent years.

I still get calls form some of our folks occasionally, asking me how they can find some 3rd gen model as they're getting ready to retire, or have already retired. Apparently, the guns have made quite an impression on a number of guys & gals who have been using them over their careers.

Unfortunately, there are apparently some considerations when it comes to S&W thinking about making the 3rd gen guns standard production items again ...

A plastic frame can be popped out of a mold in only a minute or two (Glock told us a mold can produce a new frame every 85 seconds), while it takes at least 30 minutes for a frame to be cut on the CNC equipment. Granted S&W has the frames made by a company with whom they've had a long-standing business arrangement, so it's not like it's taking up factory time at Springfield.

The cost of CNC stations is pretty significant.

Also, the time needed to make a 3rd gen gun is going to have to compete against the SW1911's (both are made at the Maine plant), and even the licensed Walther .32's & .380's. The SW1911 model line is selling as fast as they can make them, but the same can't be said for when the 3rd gen guns were still being made for the commercial catalog. Why would the company cut into their ability to meet the huge demand for the SW1911's by cutting back on SW1911's and trying to sell 3rd gen TSW's?

Then, the company would have to start making large orders from their vendors for the 3rd gen parts & assemblies that are out-sourced. I've heard that sometimes such an order could run up to $3M.

Then add to that the production and in-house machining that still has to be done to some of the cast parts received from vendors (which require finishing machining by S&W, like the manual safety assemblies). Also, some of the in-house time required to put together some of the parts into their finished assemblies (slide stop levers, triggers, drawbars, magazines, etc) ... and that cuts into the labor & time available for other better-selling products, as well.

Then, there's still some hand-fitting required on the 3rd gen's, like when installing the extractors and sear release levers. More labor time.

How many customers are really going to be willing to spend about the same money on a brand new TSW as Sig is charging for their metal-framed guns? They weren't lining up with cash in hand the last time, so the product line was dropped in favor of models that would sell.

Hey, I miss them, too. I've continued to replenish my parts supply, and add to it, so I can continue to support at least my own guns, and those of some friends. The availability of some parts has become limited or problematic in the last couple of years, since the company has apparently been focusing their time & money on other projects. Sure, they're keeping back some of the suddenly harder-to-find parts & assemblies for warranty repair purposes, to support their lifetime warranty and their LE/Gov customers agencies, but it would be nice to see some money spent on reinvigorating their "retail stock" of such parts. (I'm sure the retail vendors of such parts, who buy them from S&W, would probably like to see more parts availability, too.)

Time will tell, I suppose.

Interestingly enough, I got a call just yesterday from a guy about to retire asking how he could find a 3913.

My 1076 aint going anywhere.

I was just looking up their Armorer's course schedules (M&P and carbine) and see the 3rd Gen. Armorer's classes are still being given.

Built like a tank and still a tack driver.

Love to find a 4506TSW some day.

They were good guns that unfortunately were largely overlooked even when still in production. But..."Sometimes good things must end, before better things can begin." I'd not bet on seeing any new guns. The machinery they were made on is likely worn out and it would cost millions to re-tool for a gun that never really sold that well to begin with.

I think they are still making them, they're just not available for us regular Joe's/Jane's. We had a thread a while back, with a link to an article that some LE agency had just ordered a bunch of 3rd Gen S&W's.

I like my 4506 and I have no plans to get rid of it, but if I were buying an S&W in .45 ACP today, I'd pick a 1911 or M&P (or even a 945) before the 4506.

Last year the factory moved equipment to make the 3rd gen guns to their Maine plant. It wasn't worn out, as they've been spending up to several million dollars every couple of years for new equipment. I remember when they told me they bought $10M in new equipment one year, and then were planning to buy another $17M over the course of the next couple of years (a little while ago). I was told some was for the growing SW1911 line, and undoubtedly more was for the new M&P pistol line.

That was also about the time I was told they were breaking up their production people to create a 3rd shift (nights), so the newer CNC cutters could be run 24hrs/day (except for maintenance).

We were told that when they relocated the 3rd gen line to Maine, the Maine plant received some upgrades in both new equipment (including some new CNC machines, as a I recall being told), as well as the required software upgrades and production training.

The only thing I've been told they no longer maintained the ability to make were the 10XX 3rd gen's. I was told there was some special tooling involved back then (slide bushings?), and that the equipment for it had been obsoleted and was no longer present. Maybe the newest CNC equipment could easily be programmed to replace that old equipment. Dunno. Not a machinist or CNC operator.

I know I'll probably take some flak for it, but after owning an original 4513TSW and CS45, and then having carried new production 4566/4513TSW's before retirement ... if I were to return to active duty and could choose a .45, it would be a M&P 45. Sorry. I find them easier to shoot, amazingly accurate and more ergonomic for the hands of most average shooters.

Okay 18DAI, let me have it ...

Perhaps its not the guns that are obsolete - could it be the business or distribution model is dated? I know next to nothing about the gun business except that it works through regional distributors selling to retailers. I doubt the distributors - who have little competition - or the retailers, work for free, and it seems that this model could be improved to cut costs and make it worthwhile to produce these products. If CNC machine time is a huge factor, one of the advantages of CNC is that the work can be farmed out to anyone else who has machine time available (and my understanding is that there is lots of capacity going unused).

A number of other products are sold direct to retailers from manufacturers. Heck, look at the GunBroker model which makes the retailers (the FFL's) essentially just deliverymen. I can't believe that S&W couldn't tweak their distribution model a bit and make a nice chunk of change on some low volume/high quality products.

Can anyone who actually KNOWS the business explain how it works and why they are still using a 1930's distribution model?

For Christmas my wife bought me a new in box 1989 5906. What a sweet gun. I liked it enough I sold my American Classic II and I bought a 3913 yesterday. I think my next purchase will be a 4516 or a 4566. Smith should definitely bring back at least a few of the models. They are great shooting weapons.

A few months back I was in a financial pickle and thought about selling my S&W 469, 2nd gen. I'm grateful I didn't. It's sitting on my hip as I type this. I really like this gun, and have a shooting session scheduled tomorrow for my new 15 and 20 round mags.

I got to handle a 3rd gen and I like them as much as my 2nd gen. Not a whole lot changed on them.

Sorta off topic, but rewatching season one of the Walking Dead, and the first time Andrea is on screen after Glen rescues rick from the geeks and pulls him into the department store, Andrea sticks a 3rd gen S&W in Rick's face. I noticed the safety was on, and later in the episode Rick mentions it to her.

back OT,

I too wish S&W would reintroduce a line of all metal DA/SA hand guns. My 2nd gen has been nothing but reliable.

A buddy has the M&P 9, and I'd take my 469 over the M&P any day of the week. If I want to shoot a striker fired pistol, I've got my Hi Point.

I got one, not sure I want another but I won't sell it either.

I was hoping that considering the current popularity of sub-compact 9mm for the CCW market, S&W would see fit to re-open CS9 or 3913 production. I am not holding out hope for S&W re-establishing the entire 3rd Gen. line-up, just 1 or 2 models to compete in this ever expanding niche.

Is that really to much to ask for.

While they're at it, maybe a 945 sub-compact from PC.

FWIW:

I have always appreciated the qualities of the 3rd Gen Smith, and a few years ago when CDNN was selling out the remaining (available?) stock of several models I picked up a few.

All came with lifetime warranties (to the original owner), and at 69 you KNOW how important that is.. (lol).

Anyway, I bought a new 3913, 3913LS, 5906, 6906, CS9, and I bought a LNIB CS45 off Gunbroker.

My Son has dibs on the 3913 (his personal favorite), my wife has dibs on the 3913LS (her personal favorite), and I use the 5906 as my "bump in the nightstand drawer" choice.. (W/CT lasergrips). The 6906 I love, and I use the 15 rd mags in it from the 5906 w/S&W mag adapter.

The CS9 and CS45 were both so close in size that I sold the CS9 to a gentleman in N.Y. and made a friend in the process. The CS45 is snuggled nicely in a holster at my left hand just inside the computer desk frame. (I'm a lefty)..

I've always been a traditional double-action kinda guy, and never cared for the 1911 "cocked n' locked" set-up, so the CS45 suits me perfectly, and it's my only 45ACP pistol.

None of my 3rd Gen Smiths have over a 100rds fired thru 'em, so one day when I kick off my heir (Son) will probably sell all of them (except the 3913) for used video games..

One aspect of the 3rd Gen Smith line of pistols is that I have NEVER (knock on wood) had a failure to fire, or hangup of any kind.. I believe 3rd Gen Smiths to be supremely RELIABLE, and for this old fart, "RELIABILITY IS JOB ONE" in a firearm used for personal defense.

Jesse

I own compact .45 with alloy frame. While not utterly reliable like Makarov it is a good pistola.

My 659, 3913 and 669 have always been reliable. And as a bonus, the 659 is heavy enough to be used as an emergency boat anchor.

Love my 5906 and 4506. Wouldnt trade em for nothing. Just wish i had bought a few more models back when they were around more

Awesome pics there PX15 Thanks for sharing those beauties.
3rd gens are old school, especially the all SS ones.They are heavy, solid workhorses that digest any junk that's fed to them without complaining. I absolutely love the ones I have. There's a 4506-1 coming to join my 5906, 6906, 4566 & 6904. It should arrive sometime this week. It is a shame that S&W has forsaken them for the much more lucrative polymer market. I guess that's just what corporations do though, produce products that make the most amount of $$$ in the quickest amount of time. Can't really fault them for that. At least there are currently still a fair amount of them available in the used gun market...for now.

Nice to see I'm not the only one that likes the S&W autos. I just added a 4006 to my Smith collection. All have been LE trades and while they show some holster wear, they are some of the best shooting pistols I have. The safeties never bothered me since I don't use them anyway. I think the 4006 with become my new EDC weapon.
After I bought a 5906 and a 4506, most of my polymer guns went bye bye.

Just this week I bought a mint 910 out of a pawn shop for $300. Lots of good ones left at incredible prices if you look around enough.

I have a 745 and a 3913, great pistols.

I've had a couple of them, and don't really miss them. I bought my duty 5906 with three high cap mags for $180. I had been issued it brand new and even kept the box. She's long gone...Not long ago, I snagged this jewel and had $150 in it. She's gone, too. I've had milk in the refridgerator longer than I owned that gun.

No, steel or alloy:



I love the 3rd gen, I need to add 4 or a half-dozen to the 5906 and 6906 I have currently. 4006 & CS45 are next up!