3" 38/357 Realistic as a Starter?

Besides our issue with Glock’s SAP design

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What's wrong with the pre-cocked striker fired pistol type? And why try the M&P, which is a redesign of an earlier nearly direct clone of the Glock, firing system and all, if you don't feel comfortable with that type of system?

The FNP is a superb pistol by the way, and if you are set on a hammer-fired pistol, that one would be an excellent choice. Not terribly difficult to operate the slide either, and they have a good trigger as well.

If it's the lack of a separate safety that bothers you, I would just point out that a manual on/off safety is not a replacement for proper, safe gun handling, and will not make dangerous behavior any less dangerous, or safe behavior any more safe. They are unneccessary on most handgun designs, and can encourage people to view them as a crutch, a real on/off switch that turns their lethal weapon into something less so.

To me it was no big deal - animal takes off, safety goes off, aim and shoot. All one, fluid motion conditioned years ago. Although I haven't shot in 30 years my trigger finger still reaches to rest on the safety of my 20-gauge Ithaca Featherweight.

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Shotguns and rifles are nothing like handguns, by the way. Very few shotguns are truly drop-safe without the safety engaged or the chamber emptied, and many rifles are the same way.

Handguns are designed in this day and age to have a vanishingly small chance of just firing off without someone pulling the trigger first.

Pearsonm, I'll give you the best advice of this thread: You just got a personal invitation from John Ross in St. Louis. Take him up on it!

Well, now that we know that you are trading road racing for shooting, it's going to be real hard to let go the advice of buying more than one gun (and "numerous" is more than one!) and some training, including with Mr. Ross. Let us know which XD and which medium frame .357 you settle on to start with...

My Smith & Wesson 13-3 is my primary carry gun off duty.



My backup at work and off duty is my Smith & Wesson Model 37 (no dash).


The 3 inch heavy barrel of the Model 13-3 makes it balance like a 4 inch tapered barrel but conceals easier. At normal ranges it is easy to hit targets, and I have fired it enough at 100 yards to know where it hits. The Model 37 is easier to conceal but harder to shoot well. There is nothing you need to do with a defensive pistol that can't be done with a 3 inch revolver. If you need more than that, you need a shotgun or a rifle.

ECS

ST Louis= HI cap

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Don't buy into this ^ type of garbage. What you should buy into is a gun that feels good in your hand, you can shoot well and most importantly......can CC with it and not be bothered by it. Be it a good holster, or the right size gun - make sure it's something you'll be comfortable wearing all day. I CC a PM9 or SP101 (3 1/16") 99% of the time. YMMV

Pearson - it would be a wise investment to get four pistols for you and your wife. 2 will be your personal protection pistols, and 2 will be .22 LR. If you end up with a K Frame S&W or similar, then your .22 should be similar to it - a K22 (S&W 617 is what they make now) or similar should be on your list. If your wife ends up with a 9mm autoloader, then an autoloading .22LR that works similarly to it would be her understudy.

Then, you can afford to shoot as much as you want to, you can practice fundamentals of shooting without the noise and recoil of your centerfire weapons, do a warm-up at the range before you get started on your serious practice, then shoot a few centerfires (or a lot, depending on motivation, budget, and tolerance) for your serious practice.

The .22 is a good investment because of saving money shooting, being able to use it small game hunting (if that interests you), introducing kids and others to shooting, and having a ready-made substitute carry gun for someday in the future, if you have an injury and temporarily can't handle shooting your normal carry gun.

Just a thought.

pearsonm: So relatively speaking $450 for a brand-new XD Tactical that will last a lifetime and $15 for 50 rounds of practice ammo is a screaming bargain!

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I like your style.

sidheshooter: Well, now that we know that you are trading road racing for shooting, it's going to be real hard to let go the advice of buying more than one gun (and "numerous" is more than one!)

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Heh, heh, exactly....

pearsonm said:

^ Excellent timing, niner4tango. I can't get to sleep due to today's info overload. Your post may be some sort of sign because it hits on several points.

Thru my 9mm research I identified the XD, M&P and FNP as rental candidates. Besides our issue with Glock’s SAP design neither of us particularly care for the grip. We both agree that the XD just feels right. Plus, I’d like to think that with the grip safety I can place my thumb on the back of the slide while holstering to engage the safety and gain a little extra peace of mind.

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That's what I do.

But here’s what’s really eating me - I learned today while firing right handed that I’m left-eye dominate. Also, during the one-handed drills I shot better with my left. My mom told me a few years ago that they had to make a hard decision when I was a kid and they chose to break me of my left-handed tendencies. I guess I shouldn’t be too surprised - I‘ve always shot long guns left handed.

It sounds like changing hands is easier than changing dominant eyes, however I know it’s a right-handed world out there. The smart money might be to start with a utilitarian, ambidextrous 9mm so I can experiment and sort things out.

Man, I’ve got to get to bed.

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Try it both ways, see what feels more natural. I'm left handed and right eye dominant. I eat left, write left, throw right and and bat left (my dominant eye is facing the pitcher), and I use most tools right handed.

I shoot right handed; left handed feels awkward. YMMV.

The good thing is that a lot of pistols take this into account; the XD is ambidextrous, except for the ejection port and slide stop. If you decide to shoot left handed, make sure you train so that you don't cover the ejection port with your palm when racking the slide...

My pair of M686P.....

If your a beginner in handguns I recommend going with a .22 revolver first. If looking for a snub nose I would go for the Taurus 617 in .357/.38. They come in Stainless Steel,Blue and ultra light plus all Taurus revolvers already come comped.

Go ahead and buy the 3 inch....you can buy/shoot .38 wadcutters @ around 700 FPS that my Grandma could shoot!! Recoil is a much hyped phenomenon that affects some people before they even shoot a gun.

.38/.357's are factory loaded from bunny farts to hand held dynamite levels, you choose your poison. This caliber revolvers allow you to work your way up to loads you and yours are comfortable shooting, very versatile.

Holsters, grips, and accessories for these revolvers are plentiful and cheap. I'm not saying that a .22 isn't a good investment mind you, and you may well end up with a couple of them at some point but learning to shoot with a larger caliber certainly isn't impossible.

You are lucky in the fact that it seems you have a range that rents handguns and you are taking advantage of that, which is the smart and least expensive way to help narrow your choices. Good luck and enjoy this fantastic hobby of ours.

just for grins check out a model 66... okay it's a 4" barrel but they shoot great and you can find them as a LEO trade in for cheap $$. You can shoot 38 or 357.

Or just to stir the pot... a Dan Wesson in 357...you can put whatever size barrel on it you want from 2" snubbie to 10+" for hunting...they also have great triggers.

Whatever route you go the good thing is you are doing research.

If you want a great handling, great trigger, affordable revolver, get a K-Frame smith and Wesson. I have a 4 inch Model 19, great target pistol, great sights, nice wide target trigger and hammer. But on the other side, I have a Model 64 1 7/8" barrel, great carry gun snag free sights, smaller grips, same great feel in the hand and grease on glass double action trigger.

Get a K-frame with whatever options you want, there are many. As to barrel length, 4" if it's a bedside/range gun. 2" if you plan to carry it regularly. 3" if you don't plan on it being your main carry gun.

That being said, I do still want a 3".

My wife came with a .25 auto her dad had given her. I took her to a range and, despite my warnings, the slide bit her - twice. She decided it was dinky - and wanted her 'own' handgun. I rented everything imagined - she loved the CZ-75 (Hated the Glock, a G19... I had just sold my hi cap G21.). She said 'Never an 'old guys' gun (revolver) for me!'. After thousands of Blazer 9 mm over a couple of years, one day, at the range, she dropped the mag and walked towards me upset, as a spent case had lodged between the top of her safety glasses and her eyebrow, burning her. I, too, was upset... her finger was in the trigger guard and there was still a round in the chamber. I carefully took it from her hand and fired it at a steel plate 20yd away. Neither of us had ear protection on - and, despite being out in the open, it was loud. Instant tears - she even said, 'I know how to clear a semi-auto... I could have shot you!'. Lesson learned. At her insistence, I sold the CZ-75 - got her a used 3" 65 and fitted a new Hogue wood grip to her hand. She liked shooting it - but thought it 'too flashy' - she acquired my 2" 10 - and loves it - it's within her arm's length now as she sleeps. It doubles as her car gun, when she needs one.

Ultimately, after witnessing two thugs corner me in the back of a new WallyWorld four years ago, she decided she needed a CCW, having had a CCL for years - and I got her what I deemed dependable in a reliable and small, fits in her jeans pocket, pistol - and what she picked out - a .32 Seecamp. She is a great shot with it - and it carries quite well - and it gets carried often. My wife picked it out - and that's the key. She likes my revolvers - but won't carry a 642 in her pocket, as I do, because of the size and 'print'. I feel properly protected with five +P 158gr LHPSWC's - they have a proven track record. I see no need for .357 Magnums defending myself, in the home or out - but that is me! I keep the same ammo in speedloaders and moonclips for all of my .357 Magnum revolvers. YMMV.

Stainz

PS The two 'gang' members (same jackets), cornered me at the back wall of the store. My wife saw the younger accomplice 'sneaking' up to my side, so she hollered my name, alerting me to him. That's when she saw the older one, maybe 4 ft in front of me. I stepped back, feeling the products on hooks on the back wall touching my back - and put my right hand on the pocket carried 642, which I had oddly chosen that day to carry - for the first time. I never presented it - but, assuming I was about to, the older one looked at the accomplice - and shook his head. They turned and all but ran towards the front of the store. I checked on my wife, and ran after them... getting to the front door in time to see a Ford sedan take off. The manager was next to me when I turned - he asked if I was okay. I guess the sight of a fat white haired old man chasing thugs in his new store seemed foreign to him. I went back for my wife and left, with the manager promising to review the store cameras tapes with the police. I called back to learn that the cameras that covered my area hadn't been installed. The LEO said I was 'lucky'. I hedge my bets nowadays - that 642 is on me 24/7 - mowing the yard, going to church, or even to the grocers, as I'll do in a couple of hours. Be safe out there!

pearsonm said:

We just got back from the range where we rented a G19, XD9, FNX9, 4" GP100 and 2" SP101. Her favorite? The GP!

The GP was my favorite, too. What a cool handgun! I'm not a small guy (6'3", 210 lbs) but I felt a foot taller shooting that thing.

After our experience last weekend I was worried she would never fire a revolver again, but I couldn't pry that GP away from her! When I pressed her she finally admitted it was firmer than any of the semi-auto's, however she just felt safe with it. That’s all I need to hear.

Thank god we didn't fire the SP first - what's with the trigger on that thing? I was really disappointed because she was fine with the recoil out of the smaller frame. I was riding high that she liked the GP so much that I didn't suggest we try the Airweight and risk making her recoil shy.

We were shooting .38 rounds, by the way (from a black box, 130-something grains (I should have paid more attention)). If we go the 38/357 route I'd like to get comfortable with .38 +P hollowpoints (the classic FBI load). I plan on having fun shooting 357's but realistically I don't anticipate that being our defense load.

As for the semi-autos, we shot first and the best with the Glock. We flat out didn't like the trigger on the XD (is this thing ever going to go off?). I liked the FNH but she wasn't comfortable with the complexity of the hammer/decock/safety/DA/SA system.

Funny thing - the only malfunction of the day was with the Glock. It was the ammo - a bent case edge from a box of Federal whites - but it was still funny (of all guns, the Glock. I should go have a little fun on Glock Talk right now). I'm actually glad it happened because it made her think - OK, this just happened, the bad guy's armed and closing fast, I've got to diagnose this problem and correct it right now!

Anyway, I'm going to sleep on it but I'm really leaning towards a 3" or 4" full-size Ruger or S&W .357 (or Colt if I stumble across a stupid deal). The polymer 9mm platform is much more practical but there's just no emotional connection. I liked the sight picture out of the 4" GP over the SP. I also like the option of going to full Trijicon's since our priority is home defense.

We got our CCW applications turned in, too. I think we're going to go with a lock box with metal cable for my truck so I have something portable and lockable for when it's not on the nightstand (we don't have kids). Of course we need some nicer ear protection, a holster, a tactical light...

There’s a gun show next weekend - I can’t wait!

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...Sounds like this story is going to have a happy ending...I like that!



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Does the fact that just about every single police force and modern military has moved to the auto not tell you something? Self and Home Defense gun should never be selected based on nostalgia. Thats fine for range guns but for real world application a modern auto is the only rational choice.

JustinJ said:

Does the fact that just about every single police force and modern military has moved to the auto not tell you something? Self and Home Defense gun should never be selected based on nostalgia. Thats fine for range guns but for real world application a modern auto is the only rational choice.

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Oh, goodness -- not this line of discussion again...

I guess my TheNorthFace Denali backpack isn't the right one, because it's not what the military uses in the field...?


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I don't think there is a better handgun for home defense (at least for most people) than a 4" .357 loaded with .38 +P. The last person I helped with a purchase chose the GP100.

Does the fact that just about every single police force and modern military has moved to the auto not tell you something?

Yes, most of them have resigned to spray and pray. I carry a Taurus 327 2" and also have a Ruger sp101 327 3". If you learn to point and shoot a revolver is just as accurate, maybe even more so and you don't have to remember what condition it is in. All your shots should be in double action.

JustinJ said:

Does the fact that just about every single police force and modern military has moved to the auto not tell you something? Self and Home Defense gun should never be selected based on nostalgia. Thats fine for range guns but for real world application a modern auto is the only rational choice.

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Followed by...

igousigloo said:

Yes, most of them have resigned to spray and pray. I carry a Taurus 327 2" and also have a Ruger sp101 327 3". If you learn to point and shoot a revolver is just as accurate, maybe even more so and you don't have to remember what condition it is in. All your shots should be in double action.

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IMO, you're both wrong. Sure, semi autos have advantages but they also have disadvantages. Some are very reliable with a wide variety of ammo but some are not trustworthy with anything other than exactly what they "like." Generally speaking, if you've got a good revolver it will work with any ammo it should work with. It doesn't care about the shape of the bullet or any other nonsense... it just gets loud when you squeeze the trigger. I like that in a gun and it's part of why I'm only just now getting back into semi-auto handguns. Also, a mid-sized .357 can be loaded with a round that gives exactly the power level you need. You can load it with light wadcutters for introducing your girlfriend or aging mother to firearms, load it with Speer 135 grain GDHP for concealed carry, then load it with a stout hardcast lead bullet or JSP for carry in the woods. I know of no semi-auto that can do that just by picking up a different box of ammo.

And for spray and pray? If you think that's all semi-autos are good for you've never shot a well-tuned 1911 or a SIG or CZ. All of the above would easily outshoot most of their owners. In my youth I could literally shoot 25 yard smiley faces with a SIG 9mm and I could do a number on a B-27 target at 100 yards with it too. Aluminum cans at that range were in considerable danger. I have a friend that can hit a target the size of a pie plate at 200 yards with his S&W 1911 about half of the time. If you call that spray and pray you must be one hell of a handgun marksman!