Chris Rhines
Member
Bubba, you're making a lot of assertions in this thread, but not providing a lot of data.
Why is it 'not remotely the same thing?'
-C
Advice to new CCW holders: Part 2 - Carry like a pro
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Why is it 'not remotely the same thing?'
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sidheshooter
Member
This works just fine....
Until you have to re-holster one handed, or do an admin reload.
Pass, IMNSHO.
A) You're on a range so dressed for it.
B) You are simply doing a reload, not trying to figure out why the darned gun isnt working. This is after you realize the darn gun isn't working.
C) You know in your mind what's going to happen. So prepared for it.
D) There is no one shooting at you.
So drills involving mag changes really aren't the same as sudden failures in gun fights. However much you might want to think so.
As has been previously stated, is a firearm fails during an emergency, that is not the time to "figure out why the darned gun isnt working". There is no need to diagnose the failure. See Shawn Dodson's post:
When a stoppage occurs for any reason, if one has trained to react appropriately, and if one has practiced the skills with which to do so, one can react quite quickly.
I do not like the alternative.
This post supports my point, not refutes it. He says himself he goes through standard clearance drills, starting with tap rack. All of that is going to take 8 seconds. Even if someone is a whiz-bang it will take 4 seconds. With a gunfight typically over in 5 seconds getting the new mag will take the rest of someone's life.
armoredman
Member
Yes, it might, while standing there with an empty or malfunctioning gun is far more likely to be the rest of your life. I'd rather take the chance on being able to replace the magazine than run away hoping I don't get shot in the back with an empty/non functioning sidearm.
If your post was true, cops wouldn't carry spare mags nor train with mag change drills, and every cop doing a mag change in a firefight would be dead. I do not believe this to be true. I cannot say for a fact that I can do it under fire as you seem to require, because I tend to avoid gunfights if I can, and I if I read your post accurately you seem to believe that any training whatsoever in any kind of magazine changes that is not carried out under live fire conditions is a waste of time for anyone.
What guru trained you this way, and how many firefights has it kept you alive through, considering it flies in the face of almost all training I have either taken or been exposed to.
If your post was true, cops wouldn't carry spare mags nor train with mag change drills, and every cop doing a mag change in a firefight would be dead. I do not believe this to be true. I cannot say for a fact that I can do it under fire as you seem to require, because I tend to avoid gunfights if I can, and I if I read your post accurately you seem to believe that any training whatsoever in any kind of magazine changes that is not carried out under live fire conditions is a waste of time for anyone.
What guru trained you this way, and how many firefights has it kept you alive through, considering it flies in the face of almost all training I have either taken or been exposed to.
huntsman
Member
I got this same advice from my instructor and I put it into practice daily.
Not to me, and not to Shawn, and not to many who train others.
That is if the magazine does not fall free on its own.
Having to draw and fire indicates a very dangerous situation, and if the firearm should malfunction or if one were to fire the entire magazine load, the danger would become much more serious.
However, I would not design any strategy around averages, nor would I want to be left in danger without a loaded and functioning forearm because I had done so.
newbuckeye
Member
That's exactly why i got rid some of my mags for my G17 when I used it for a duty weapon. Small investment, huge return!
CombatArmsUSAF
Member
Spent 7 years of my 11 years in the Air Force as a FULL TIME instructor,
You said nothing I disagreed with.
You said nothing I disagreed with.
Elm Creek Smith
Member
Rule 1 - Have a gun. My first CCW* was a much used High Standard Sentinel .22 LR snub-nose.
Rule 2 - Have a holster. My first CCW holster was a generic suede IWB clip holster.
Rule 3 - Practice, practice, practice.
I was a dirt poor college student working two jobs and supporting a wife and baby, and I could not afford anything better. Hell, my shotgun was bolt-action Mossberg 20 gauge that my Dad bought me for Christmas.
The overarching rule is to carry the best that you can afford at the time in the best holster you can afford at the time and to practice with both until you can shoot like a pro.
ECS
*(I have to admit that at the time I started carrying, there was no such thing as "lawful concealed carry" in my state. After a near miss working for a pizza place, a police officer told me he wouldn't do what I did without carrying a gun. When I asked if it was legal, he looked me dead in the eye and said, "I would carry a gun." I took that as a hint.)
Rule 2 - Have a holster. My first CCW holster was a generic suede IWB clip holster.
Rule 3 - Practice, practice, practice.
I was a dirt poor college student working two jobs and supporting a wife and baby, and I could not afford anything better. Hell, my shotgun was bolt-action Mossberg 20 gauge that my Dad bought me for Christmas.
The overarching rule is to carry the best that you can afford at the time in the best holster you can afford at the time and to practice with both until you can shoot like a pro.
ECS
*(I have to admit that at the time I started carrying, there was no such thing as "lawful concealed carry" in my state. After a near miss working for a pizza place, a police officer told me he wouldn't do what I did without carrying a gun. When I asked if it was legal, he looked me dead in the eye and said, "I would carry a gun." I took that as a hint.)
mljdeckard
Member
All of these reflect the things I tell my students.
Driftertank
Member
The big argument in this thread seems to be over spare mags and malfunction diagnosis. Figure i throw in my 2 bits and see if anyone bites my head off...
My normal carry gun is a 1911 in .45ACP. I typically carry chambered over the factory 7 rounder, with a Wilson 8 rounder for a spare, 2 Wilson's if i know i'm going to be in a bad part of town. 230gr Hydra-shoks in all of them.
Malfunctions are very rare with my pistol, but they do happen sometimes. Now for the part that may be inflammatory: i have taught myself, when doing action drills, to react to any cessation of function by reloading and working the slide by hand. I skip the tap-rack-bang and go straight for the reload. So in a stress situation, whether my gun jams or i lose count of rounds and come up empty, my response and the result is the same; in 2 seconds i'm running a full mag again. I don't trust the slide release, reload and rack.
Is there any serious fault to my method that I fail to realise?
My normal carry gun is a 1911 in .45ACP. I typically carry chambered over the factory 7 rounder, with a Wilson 8 rounder for a spare, 2 Wilson's if i know i'm going to be in a bad part of town. 230gr Hydra-shoks in all of them.
Malfunctions are very rare with my pistol, but they do happen sometimes. Now for the part that may be inflammatory: i have taught myself, when doing action drills, to react to any cessation of function by reloading and working the slide by hand. I skip the tap-rack-bang and go straight for the reload. So in a stress situation, whether my gun jams or i lose count of rounds and come up empty, my response and the result is the same; in 2 seconds i'm running a full mag again. I don't trust the slide release, reload and rack.
Is there any serious fault to my method that I fail to realise?
Driftertank
Member
Most of the malfunctions i have had seem to have been due to ammunition. I've never had a malf on my carry ammo (knock wood) and even when it happens with cheap ammo, it's at the end of a day at the range, when it's dry and dirty. Think my last malf was over a year and a half ago with walmart WWB. She's reliable enough for me.
I have a buddy i often shoot with. One drill we run is to have the other person load mags, often less than full. The idea is that this simulates an unexpected stoppage. Recognize the stoppage, clear and reload. Sounds silly, but when you're trying to make the response to an unexpected "it didn't go bang" automatic, it works. If you pull the trigger and nothing happens, rip the mag out, bang a new one in, and rack the slide. Don't waste seconds trying to figure out why, just stoke and stroke. If the problem's bad enough that it's not fixed by this, you're likely screwed anyway. If you're outta mags and jammed, you're likely screwed anyway.
Just my opinion. If i'm wrong, tell me why.
I have a buddy i often shoot with. One drill we run is to have the other person load mags, often less than full. The idea is that this simulates an unexpected stoppage. Recognize the stoppage, clear and reload. Sounds silly, but when you're trying to make the response to an unexpected "it didn't go bang" automatic, it works. If you pull the trigger and nothing happens, rip the mag out, bang a new one in, and rack the slide. Don't waste seconds trying to figure out why, just stoke and stroke. If the problem's bad enough that it's not fixed by this, you're likely screwed anyway. If you're outta mags and jammed, you're likely screwed anyway.
Just my opinion. If i'm wrong, tell me why.
armoredman
Member
A complete and thorough answer. You have no information that I need.Bubba613 said:
newbuckeye
Member
I would also recommend that you tuck the mag into a pocket rather than dropping it. That way, if there are rounds left in it, they can be used if you should happen to run dry on the second mag.
If it takes you 8 seconds to diagnose & correct a weapons malfunction, I'd suggest you need more practice.
For USAF M9 qualification, each string of fire is 8 seconds. The first time I qualified M9 (the first time I'd ever shot a Beretta, in fact), I got a junk gun that malfunctioned every 2-3 shots, or put another way, had approx. 2-3 malfunctions per 8 second string of fire. I still shot expert.
R
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Driftertank
Member
Noted and agreed. Thank you for the constructive response.
Little details that could save my life someday.
Twmaster
Member
I thought the articles were a good starting point for new CCWers. Kudos to the OP.
Where I think Bubba is getting 8 seconds is the time he'll spend shaking the sewage out of his trousers...
Oh, one nit to pick... Those Hungarian PA-63 Walther PP knock-offs are not (IMHO) poor quality guns. Although I agree they do not like hollow points. Unless you fix the feed ramp...
Where I think Bubba is getting 8 seconds is the time he'll spend shaking the sewage out of his trousers...
Oh, one nit to pick... Those Hungarian PA-63 Walther PP knock-offs are not (IMHO) poor quality guns. Although I agree they do not like hollow points. Unless you fix the feed ramp...
beatledog7
Member
I think it's a good article considering its intended audience, new CCW holders, but with one rather critical exception.
This is in a newspaper, and many people who "read" the article will see only this: Always carry -
I realize the author followed up with "wherever it is legal to do so," but not until the third sentence of the paragraph. The majority of newspaper readers will not get that far, and will only remember the author giving permission to carry everywhere.
This is in a newspaper, and many people who "read" the article will see only this: Always carry -
I realize the author followed up with "wherever it is legal to do so," but not until the third sentence of the paragraph. The majority of newspaper readers will not get that far, and will only remember the author giving permission to carry everywhere.
How about if we all step down of our high horses, relax, and try again? We owe to all the previous generations, and to the rest of the human race, to show we are civilized (at last!) beings.
I believe the article has valid points, including carrying extra ammo is not a bad idea; in fact, it reminds me of my policy of carrying tools and spare fuses/belts/bulbs in my car. I found out if they are in the trunk I will never need them. Ask yourself: how much space and inconvenience does an extra clip cost you? Chances are you might never need it, but it is there just in case.
Now the author might have a personal issue with Eastern block or cheaper weapons. And I have no problems with it. If that was my article, however, I would have said to "pick the best weapon you can afford and are comfortable with. And then say that Glocks or 1911s or whatever are the traditional choices because of these reasons and so on." I just do not like political ads that instead of highlighting the positive features of a candidate, they throw mud on the other guy. I think you caught my drift.
Interestingly enough, I went to some competition (you run behind a wood wall, shoot some targets, run to another, shoot more targets, and so on) last month. My handgun was my P64. 70% of the other people had 1911s on .45 caliber. At first I was told "you can't use that gun because it is a tiny gun and it will never shoot accurately." And yet I shot/dropped most targets. Even the Texas Star, which has 5 metal plates and I had only 6 rounds in my magazine (was not allowed to reload in that stage; I had 3 more full mags on my back). In the end I was told not to come back until I "buy a real gun" (GLock, Sig, 1911) because... my ammo was too small so it had no stopping power to drop the steel targets.
I believe the article has valid points, including carrying extra ammo is not a bad idea; in fact, it reminds me of my policy of carrying tools and spare fuses/belts/bulbs in my car. I found out if they are in the trunk I will never need them. Ask yourself: how much space and inconvenience does an extra clip cost you? Chances are you might never need it, but it is there just in case.
Now the author might have a personal issue with Eastern block or cheaper weapons. And I have no problems with it. If that was my article, however, I would have said to "pick the best weapon you can afford and are comfortable with. And then say that Glocks or 1911s or whatever are the traditional choices because of these reasons and so on." I just do not like political ads that instead of highlighting the positive features of a candidate, they throw mud on the other guy. I think you caught my drift.
Interestingly enough, I went to some competition (you run behind a wood wall, shoot some targets, run to another, shoot more targets, and so on) last month. My handgun was my P64. 70% of the other people had 1911s on .45 caliber. At first I was told "you can't use that gun because it is a tiny gun and it will never shoot accurately." And yet I shot/dropped most targets. Even the Texas Star, which has 5 metal plates and I had only 6 rounds in my magazine (was not allowed to reload in that stage; I had 3 more full mags on my back). In the end I was told not to come back until I "buy a real gun" (GLock, Sig, 1911) because... my ammo was too small so it had no stopping power to drop the steel targets.
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Driftertank
Member
For shooting steel, i would tend to agree with the other guys at the range, .380 really isn't enough bullet to reliably drop the targets, but i don't see it as any reason to exclude someone from trying, as often as they want. I've shot a couple steel plates with a .380, and at least at the range i was at, it consistently took 2 rapid hits per target to keep the plates from just dropping back into reset. My .45 drops them with aplomb.
But if someone wants to run a well laid out practical course merely for the training value, refusing to let them do so just sounds snobbish. Unless it's run by a governing body that clearly denotes minimum power factor for that class, in which case they should have flat refused to let you run the first time.
But if someone wants to run a well laid out practical course merely for the training value, refusing to let them do so just sounds snobbish. Unless it's run by a governing body that clearly denotes minimum power factor for that class, in which case they should have flat refused to let you run the first time.
tyeo098
Member
A gun is better than no gun.
I plan on carrying my Makarov (PPK Knockoff?)
If its good enough for the Spetsnaz, its good enough for me.
I plan on carrying my Makarov (PPK Knockoff?)
If its good enough for the Spetsnaz, its good enough for me.
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