disappointment with the quality of CZ Duty.

JohnBT said:

"but with the CZ marketing spiels, but even that isn't arguably FALSE, just easily misinterpreted."

I agree completely. Some folks misread what's on the CZ site and all of a sudden it's LIES? No, they just didn't read what was actually written.

For instance, the word widespread has nothing to do with the number of whatever it is that's being used, it has to do with geography.

"Spread or scattered over a considerable extent: widespread fallout from a nuclear explosion"

Iow, you can take ten bags of flour and dump them in a pile or you can take one bag and spread it widely - widespread.

Nobody ever really believed Glock's advertising motto did they? You know, Glock Perfection. Is it a lie because all Glocks aren't perfect?

John

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Only one problem with your point John..... they dont use the word "Widespread" they use the words "Most Used".

Here is the P01 press release.

February 2003
The P-01 is now a NATO classified pistol and issued the NATO stock number NSN 1005-16-000-8619.

The CZ P-01 is the culmination of several years of exhaustive design and testing. Ceska Zbrojovka has always had some of the most rigorous testing requirements in the world but, the Czech National police has required that they go even further, the testing regiment for this new pistol was the most demanding anyone has ever encountered. There are almost 20 specific requirements covering everything from accuracy to interchangability, from safety to reliability/durability and everything in between.

The pistol: The CZ P-01 is a Gen 3 pistol that began as a requirement for a lightweight compact pistol that will deliver the accuracy and durability of a full size, full weight pistol. This was no small task, several manufacturers declined to even start the project.

The first thing you notice about this pistol is the M3 light rail on the frame, a first for CZ, the alloy frame is a little wider at the top than a steel CZ 75. This adds strength and rigidity for mounting the light and increasing the accuracy and service life of the pistol. The P-01 also sports enhanced controls as well as a drop free magazine and a lanyard loop.

The pistol was required to pass a wide variety of tests:

The police required that the pistol ensure the highest level of comfort, an extended slide release was added as well as an extended magazine release and the trigger was reshaped to give a more consistent pull throughout the trigger stroke.

The pistol must be 100% reliable in extreme conditions, the following is a list of some of the minimum requirements.

Must be able to complete the following without failure:

4000 dry firings
3000 De-cockings
Operator level disassembly 1350 times with out ware or damage to components.
Complete disassembly 150 times, this is all the way down, pins, springs etc.
100% interchangability, any number of pistols randomly selected, disassembled, parts mixed and reassembled with no failures of any kind including loss of accuracy.


Safety requirements:

Drop test
1.5 meter (4.9”) drop test, this is done 54 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked. Dropping the pistol on the butt, the muzzle, back of the slide, sides of the gun, top of the slide, in essence, any angle that you could drop the gun from. This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.

3meter drop (9.8”) 5 times with the pistol loaded (blank) and the hammer cocked, This is done on concrete and 0 failures are allowed! A failure is the gun firing.

After these tests are complete the gun must fire without service.

The factory contracted an independent lab to do additional testing on guns that previously passed the drop tests. These pistol were dropped an additional 352 times without failure.

The pistol must also complete an environmental conditions test:
This means cold, heat, dust/sand and mud.
The pistol must fire after being frozen for 24 hours at –35C (-36F).
The pistol must fire after being heated for 24 hours at 70C (126F)
The pistol must fire after being submerged in mud, sand and combinations including being stripped of oil then completing the sand and mud tests again.

Service life:
The service life requirement from the Czech police was 15,000 rounds of +P ammo!
The pistol will exceed 30,000 rounds with ball 9mm.

Reliability:
The reliability requirements for the P-01 pistol are 99.8%, that’s a .2% failure rate.
This equals 20 stoppages in 10,000 rounds or 500 “Mean Rounds Between Failure” (MRBF)
During testing, the average number of stoppages was only 7 per 15,000 rounds fired, this is a .05% failure rate, a MRBF rate of 2142 rounds! Over 4 time the minimum acceptable requirement.
The U.S. Army MRBF requirement is 495 rounds for 9mm pistols with 115 grain Ball ammunition.

Heritage:
The P-01 is based on the CZ 75, the most used pistol in the world. Over 60 countries use it as the standard side arm of their Armies, National police forces, National security agencies or other Law enforcement organizations. No other pistol can make this claim.





I also think its interesting, at the top of that press release, it says "THE NEXT GENERATION OF PERFECT PISTOLS".

Apparently the word Perfect doesnt belong to Glock alone.

My main claim is clear: CZ makes assertions that can be easily misread or misinterpreted. I think we are lacking proofs of ALMOST ANYTHING else, however.

Click to expand...

My main claim is that this is easily proven:

There are in fact, many pistols in use by NATO (and this can be verified) that are sold to the public.

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While their statement is not, at least by anyone that I know of at this point in time. I think if any manufacturer makes that claim, they should be challenged on it.

Let me ask you something. How does someone prove a negative? How does someone prove a new testing protocol DOESN'T exist. It is up to the person who makes the claim to prove it.

Personally, I don't believe someone who uses "tricky language" is the least bit morally superior to a liar, as more than likely, they have the same intention. This is my belief.

No, they just didn't read what was actually written.

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This is what was actually written:

The P-01 is the only NATO spec pistol on the market that is available to the public.

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balance 740,

Are you saying that the Beretta M-9 is for sale to the public?

What NATO spec. pistol are you referring to?

So how did this saga play out? Did you get a proper holster and stop knocking your rear sight out of alignment?

Are you saying that the Beretta M-9 is for sale to the public?

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Yes. Commercial M9 pistols are for sale to the public.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=284963

I also posted a link to a civilian owned Walther P5c, L102A1 pistol that was used by NATO forces, and had a stock number. H&K P8 pistols were also sold to the public, as well as many other pistols used by NATO forces.

Yes. Commercial M9 pistols are for sale to the public.

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They are a similar, but slightly different pistol......even the link to the thread that you started points this out several times.

The PO-1 is that I own is exactly the same as approved by NATO.

The M-9 while similar, is not the same pistol that I used in the Air Force.

This is my sincere belief.......can anyone show me the error in this?

They are a similar, but slightly different pistol......even the link to the thread that you started points this out several times.

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The differences they point out in that thread were between the civilian 92fs and the M9. Glock's model 17 and 19 pistols are also used by NATO, and I believe they are the exact same pistol as well. Also, the FN Five-Seven is used by NATO forces, and I believe it is the exact same pistol as the civilian version as well.

Glock 17 NSN on the bottom of the page:

http://www.glock.com/english/glock17_tech.htm

Glock 19 NSN on the bottom of the page:

http://www.glock.com/english/glock19_tech.htm

All this is beside the point though. I was just pointing out that their statement about how the P-01 is the only NATO spec firearm available to the public is false, since there are NATO spec firearms available to the public. The link to the Walther P5c, L102A1 in post #95 is proof of this.

CZguy: They are a similar, but slightly different pistol......even the link to the thread that you started points this out several times.

The PO-1 is that I own is exactly the same as approved by NATO.

The M-9 while similar, is not the same pistol that I used in the Air Force.

This is my sincere belief.......can anyone show me the error in this?

Click to expand...

See? This is the funny part, this guy bought the line.

Here is what CZ says.

February 2003
The P-01 is now a NATO classified pistol and issued the NATO stock number NSN 1005-16-000-8619.

The CZ P-01 is the culmination of several years of exhaustive design and testing. Ceska Zbrojovka has always had some of the most rigorous testing requirements in the world but, the Czech National police has required that they go even further, the testing regiment for this new pistol was the most demanding anyone has ever encountered. There are almost 20 specific requirements covering everything from accuracy to interchangability, from safety to reliability/durability and everything in between.




Its not a NATO test.

Its a Czech National Police test.

But you have been MISLEAD to think, its a NATO test.


I wonder how hard it is, for a country like Czechoslovakia to get one of THEIR national gun companies to win a police contract, and then ACT like "NATO" has some sort of "Gun Testing" division that tested it.


Another guy falls for the "Its a NATO pistol" line.


The only TEST the P01 went thru, was to be applied to the Czech National Police.

NOT NATO.

But since CZ is a "Export Company" and American buyers think its cool, they put the NSN number on the side.



This CLOCK has a NSN number. 6645-01-467-8479 to be exact.

Is it the best clock ever?



EVERY GUN the Czech National Police uses is a CZ gun.

I .... dont think this is because they bested all others in tests. MY guess is that they were the ONLY guns tested.

HandgunsCZ-75
CZ SP-01
CZ 75D PCR Compact
CZ P-01
CZ 2075 RAMI
CZ P-07 Duty
CZ 97B

Submachine guns
Vz skorpion

Carbines
Sa vz. 58

Sniper rifles
CZ 700 (to be replaced by the CZ-750)

The P-01 is now a NATO classified pistol and issued the NATO stock number NSN 1005-16-000-8619.

The CZ P-01 is the culmination of several years of exhaustive design and testing. Ceska Zbrojovka has always had some of the most rigorous testing requirements in the world but, the Czech National police has required that they go even further, the testing regiment for this new pistol was the most demanding anyone has ever encountered. There are almost 20 specific requirements covering everything from accuracy to interchangability, from safety to reliability/durability and everything in between.

Click to expand...

The first statement says the gun has gotten a NATO CLASSIFICATION. It doesn't say what that means or what had to be done to achieve that classification.

The second statement says that the P-01 had to go through a very demanding testing regimine for the Czech National Police.

Were there other press releases and statements, or is this just another example of people MISREADING what was clearly written? What is the CZ lie, in this case? Or, are we simply seeing folks MISREADING things, again?

Not at all Walt, I am claiming that they are UNRELATED, as are you.

the "Nato Test" is purely forum propaganda.

Its not a NATO TESTED pistol like I have heard 100 times on this forum, its a Czech police tested pistol.

As you pointed out as well.

Actually Walt, I did a little search for P01 and Nato, and it seems you yourself at one point believed it, as did I.

Walt Sherrill: The P-01 has undergone a rigorous NATO testing regimine.

Click to expand...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=130512


I dont think CZ is going to be quick to dispell the myth, but it IS a myth.

I may have accepted that claim as correct, but as I have noted several times in this discussion, I think some of their marketing claims can be easily misinterpreted. Are they written to cause that? I don't know.

If the press release example cited above is the only facts available that we can find, then I'd say my earlier statement was made without adequate proof. My bad. (I will say, however, that I don't remember reading that particular press release before. Maybe I "misinterpreted" some other claim or information not presently available.)

It is unclear whether CZ conducted tests for the P-01 to get the NATO classification. I don't know, and neither do you. It would be nice to find out. As we've said before, the lack of evidence is NOT evidence. It's just the lack of evidence.

I believed it too.

Mostly based on reccomendations from this very forum.

Jumped into CZs whole hog. Told everyone I shot with how fantastic they were.

My gun dealer still jokes about how sold on CZs I was back then.

It certainly has a NATO stock number...



Note, that IS my wife's sidearm.

I got into CZs by accident, buying an EAA Witness, (first 40SW Witness to come into the US, I discovered later), and then a few years later, moving into the original, the CZ lineup. I listened to no marketing claims, read no catalogs, just went with what fit me and worked right. After having big name pistols fail on me, I didn't care where they came from, just do the fit and do they work?

Yes, they do. This IS my carry pistol now.



Made another convert to the P-01 recently, too. She previously only knew Glock. Not a slam on Glock, that was all she knew from work.

I have forwarded this entire thread to CZ-USA marketing for review, and we'll see what happens afterwards. BUT, back to the OP, it's Wednesday evening - did you call and get a response on your P-07?

dom1104 said:

I believed it too.

Mostly based on reccomendations from this very forum.

Jumped into CZs whole hog. Told everyone I shot with how fantastic they were.

My gun dealer still jokes about how sold on CZs I was back then.

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Actually, I'm STILL sold on CZs. I like them a lot. And, I have had no problems with any that I've owned. I've had a bunch.

I just don't have to reinforce my love of CZs by relying on CZ marketing hype, nor view that hype as a reason to think the guns or the company are bad.

That said, I like Witnesses, too. (The Tanfoglio-branded "clones" I find less attractive, mostly because most of them have strange controls in unusual places.) I like Sphinxes and AT-84s's as well. I also liked the ASAI One-Pro I had for a while.

(There are also a couple of Glocks, a BHP, three SIGs, two Rugers, and one Taurus -- all in my gun safe, today. And, I still plan to get a 75 Tactical Sport, one of these days.)

I personally don't care about marketing department claims. It is no different than "Glock Perfection" or on Beretta's website where they drone on about how the US military picked their handgun because it is perfect.

Personally I let a gun's reputation speak for itself. Cz pistols work.

I think what a company states in their slogan, and what it states in their statements are two different things, but I agree.

The custom shop SP-01 Shadow I handled had the best trigger I have ever felt in my life. I'd seriously consider buying one of these before getting a custom 1911.

I'd like to know more about where I can get that tactical clock.

^
That thing is timeless. It stands behind you.

This CLOCK has a NSN number. 6645-01-467-8479 to be exact.

Is it the best clock ever?

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As a matter of fact it is, I have one just like it.

Well, this issue on the PO-1 may never be solved.........but I still like mine.

May I introduce some thoughts from Mr J Morton, of CZ-USA?

In any case, it’s refreshing to see that people are reading and discussing our website and catalog. At times it seems like our efforts are all for naught, but threads like this provide much needed encouragement.

I’ll try to address a few of the issues that were brought up individually, but I’ll start by saying that my personal integrity as well as the reputation of the company are both too important to risk by propagating false information. This is evident by the fact that between all the people contributing to this conversation on THR, not one could substantiate a claim that any untrue information was intentionally published.

It has been pointed out to me from time to time that occasionally I am wrong. I accept this, and I make corrections when errors are identified. I even mess up a dimension or tech spec on a gun once in a while. Other times circumstances will change to make previous statements invalid. Still not lies.

NSN on the P-01: True. It was the only model with a NSN that was available to civilian consumers at the time of introduction. It’s still the only one available to consumers with the number marked on the gun of which I’m aware. If another manufacturer has offered this to the public, or will offer it to the public in the future, that does not make our claim a lie, just out of date. – I did see the image of the L102A1 – is this available as new production to the civilian consumer with the number or only as government issue?

The CZ 75 B is used by more governments, militaries , police and security agencies than any other pistol in the world: True. I inherited this claim. It has lots of supporting facts. To this day no competitor has disputed this that I am aware of. If they have, they haven’t shared their proof with me.

The CZ 75 is the second most copied handgun design ever. True. The 1911 is #1 in the number of clones.

Here’s another that wasn’t mentioned…. With over 200 acres of factory buildings under roof, CZ is the largest small arms manufacturer in the world. Also true, but when taken out of context (remove the 200 acres of buildings part), it could be misleading.

“most used” vs. “widespread”: The February 2003 Press Release on the P-01 is almost 10 years old (9 months before I joined the company). Most likely written by someone who’s native language was Czech, not English. If something in there was misleading, it was most likely due to the ESL factors, not an attempt to mislead anyone.

Winningest pistol in IPSC competition. (I know, “winningest” is not a real word. That may make it marketing spin or hype, but it doesn’t make it any less true.)

As far as hype is concerned, The CZ 75 can claim to be perfect just as much or more so than any pistol model. The 2nd Generation (75 B) is still in production and remains one of the best selling CZ models. At least one other company claims perfection. I believe their definition of perfection is currently on Gen 4.

At the most basic level our marketing is about communicating technical features of products to consumers. This year the product information portion of our catalog is 69 pages long. As I flip through, I find very little bragging. Way less than a page in total is spent bragging. The other 68+ pages is full of basic firearms info and concepts, solid facts, specs, and descriptions of product.

If we want to pick something apart, let’s look at something more current and relevant. Last year we started writing some mini articles for our catalog that help explain concepts relevant to our products to new gun owners/users. I’d love to get feedback on the tech articles in this year’s catalog product info section. Let me know what you think about the decocker vs. safety, second strike or single set trigger.

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^^^Thank you for posting that. It's cool to see that someone's listening to the little guys, and has the brass to speak for himself...and that he poked at Glock!

@ meanmrmustard

Amen - good for him.

I think the thing that sells me the most on CZ is that of all the makes of pistol I have, I have had less problems with them then any of the others, same with my brother. Forget the marketing hype, I go with my personal experience.

Awesome that they actually took time to respond.