Should Ethnicity and Race matter on 4473?

Shouldn't be on there. Tools of self defense support a fundamental human right.

Given results of research into the human genome, everyone should check all the boxes.

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Of course, if we were looking to process some scientific function then sure, everyone is all more or less genetically identical (save for a few isolated groups with mitochondrial DNA differences yet to be explained).

But that's not what's going on here. It's just another way of having the purchaser note how he or she identifies him- or herself.

Seems like a very odd question to me,
Seems like the ACLU would already have their panties in a wad over that right there.

There are other questions like, are you a Muslim Terrorist that would do as much good, and would be no less racial profiling.

rc

""Anglo-Saxon" for everybody in USA"

No. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes were from the mainland of Europe and invaded the east and south what later was known as the British Isles. There were already people living there, so all the Irish, Scots and Welsh aren't Anglo-Saxon.

Why do suppose the Brits around London got themselves a royal family from Germany and continue to torment the Irish and Scots?

John

""Anglo-Saxon" for everybody in USA"

No. The Angles, Saxons and Jutes were from the mainland of Europe and invaded the east and south what later was known as the British Isles. There were already people living there, so all the Irish, Scots and Welsh aren't Anglo-Saxon.

Why do suppose the Brits around London got themselves a royal family from Germany and continue to torment the Irish and Scots?

John

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My point exactly. So we've got Celts their too. But since Ireland was conquered two or three times first by Vikings (Germanic), then by the Normans (Franco/Scandi/Germanic) and then English (now a combo of all of the above...etc etc etc.

Pretty soon we'll be wondering who's a Visigoth, an Ostrogoth, a Magyar, a Geat, a Frank, a Burgundian.

Ah ethnicity...not so easy.

Who cares what you are, your an american first. Just more beaurocratic noseyness to keep some pols, dumber than dirt, nephew employed.

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Not everyone who buys a gun from a dealer is a US citizen. It is legal for others to buy guns. On many forms, Hispanic was also considered white, therefore keeping better stats should no big deal

thumbprints

For a while, Tennessee required the dealer fill out a card including the purchaser's thumbprints as part of the state background check process on a 4473 (Tennessee substituted the federal Brady Act background check for the previous Tennessee application for permission to purchase a handgun with CLEO sign-off permit system).

After accumulation of millions of cards at dealers with no investigative need or value, Tennessee dropped the thumbprint requirement.

Sam1911 said:

Yup off to the great big filing cabinet in the sky, so to speak. Some small percentage of 4473s do end up sent in when shops go out of business.

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My understanding is that the 4473 must be kept for 20 years, unless the shop closes then they all go to the feds.

Is that not correct?

Yes.

The copies I have kept in a file folder that long are illegible because the carbon copy ink has faded to nothingness.

Nothing the CSI lab and Grisom couldn't read with a puff of magic powder I'm sure though!

rc

After accumulation of millions of cards at dealers with no investigative need or value, Tennessee dropped the thumbprint requirement.

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Not exactly. One dealer had a contact with a state rep and brought the idea of doing away with it because it did no good. After some lobbying, including pointing out that the prints were illegible and had never been used to solve a crime the legislature abolished it.
I'll leave you to guess who the dealer was.



On the new question, it is absurd. You need a photo ID. So they know what you look like. I have a friend whose family was German and emigrated to Brazil. He grew up there speaking Portugese and later Spanish and then moved here when he was young. He is indistinguishable from any white person in this city. No one would guess he is Hispanic. How is this question supposed to identify him?
We need to do away with all this racial garbage. In Germany it is forbidden to ask such questions. If we want to move to a post racial society we will not do that by creating new ethnic and racial categories.

In recognition of the highlighted block 10-A

I remember back when some California forms began to incorporate "Hispanic sur-name" as an alternate answer in what would otherwise be a "race" block, a fella from state government up in Sacramento said that it was due to the fear of Hispanic/Latino citizens not getting their fare recognition due to the alarming (his word) trend towards those two blocks often marking themselves down as "white" when that was an option and sometimes, even - GASP - caucasian.

Are people so embarrassed to mention there race? or is it a oh no the government has my social, my DOB, and now they want my race .....gasp what will i do???? Come on people its a simple question that is just a little box you put a check mark in, maybe we should start a thread called "should my name matter on a 4473" that makes plenty of sense why we shouldnt have our names on there.

The 4473 is not the only form which added these ethnicity changes. A lot of hospitals and such changed their forms as well. The medical center that my wife manages did so this year.

But seriously, this is a form where you have to answer questions which only affect a person intent on breaking the law. Such a person would not answer truthfully anyway.

Do I think the new bits are pointless and anal? .... Sure, the entire 4473 is.
Does it bother me to check the boxes? .... Yes, a little. But I'll survive.
Will it affect my future? .... I sincerely doubt it.

Things like this remind me of an old friend of mine. When he sees a box for 'race', he writes in 'Human'.

My understanding is that the 4473 must be kept for 20 years, unless the shop closes then they all go to the feds.

Is that not correct?

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No. They must be kept for 20 years and then may be destroyed.

They only go to the feds if the shop goes out of business before the 20 year mark.

Long ago, a buddy of mine who was in the Marines was arrested for murder...they had id'd his car, stopped him and a friend, took them to jail...then the police realized the 2 murderers in an identical car were black, while my buddy and his friend were white...

It's just for ID...what makes me laugh it the "are you a fugitive from justice" question. I wonder if anyone ever checks "yes"...


PA State Police still have records of handgun transfers going back to the late 1930's on their computers.


mark

If the ethnicity box on the 4473 is there to help resolve NCIC sound alike hits, then it's a good thing. I can't see it having any other legitimate use.

One thing to remember is that when a name is checked in NCIC the race field is either Black or White. For example I stopped a woman on a traffic stop, with a name similar to Lydia Ramirez. She's white and her husband is hispanic. When I ran her name and DOB in NCIC a deportation order was returned. It was obvious it wasn't her, but when dealing with something like that over a phone, it could turn a couple hour delay into a couple minutes.

After accumulation of millions of cards at dealers with no investigative need or value, Tennessee dropped the thumbprint requirement.

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FFL dealers still take the thumbprints from me every time. The last time was in February.

I see little value in the new question unless it is added to the NICs background check system. You dealers know precisely what information is required when the NICs check is done. Sounds like profiling to me.

Come on people its a simple question that is just a little box you put a check mark in, maybe we should start a thread called "should my name matter on a 4473" that makes plenty of sense why we shouldnt have our names on there.

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You understand that a name is a chief identifying characteristic while a race is not, especially since you need a photo ID, right?
It isn't a question of embarrassment. It is a question of why we need to do it at all.

FFL dealers still take the thumbprints from me every time. The last time was in February.

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The requirement went away about 2 years ago. Next time they tell you to do a thumbprint tell them to call Doug Woodlee at TICS and confirm they dont need to do this.

New Jersey requires fingerprints to be taken in order to get the Firearms ID Card which is then required to purchase firearms.

Sounds like profiling to me.

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Profiling by whom and to what end? A gun dealer is very most likely to be the only person who will ever see that 4473 form (just before he tucks it into his filing cabinet) and he already KNOWS what race the buyer at least appears to be, because he's looking at the buyer standing on the other side of the counter!

It's not like there's going to be some moment of racist revaluation ... "Holy CRAP! This guy's HISPANIC! I had NO idea! Myrtle, get me my white sheet and hood!"

I completely agree this is silly and pointless, and I'm as big a fan of government conspiracy paranoia as the next guy, but I just don't see any practical concern here.

Not everyone who buys a gun from a dealer is a US citizen. It is legal for others to buy guns.

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That was also addressed in the updated 4473. Legal aliens are no longer required to provide 90 day proof of residency.

Yup off to the great big filing cabinet in the sky, so to speak. Some small percentage of 4473s do end up sent in when shops go out of business.

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If someone is worried about .Gov having the info, I would consider the forms to be 'lost' once they go to the fed's storage. I doubt anyone there could find your file if their life depended on it.

I filled out the new form yesterday and we talked about all the errors I've made over the years and how people answer things incorrectly every single day.

"since you need a photo ID"

Have you seen the photos on Virginia driver's licenses?

In 2006 two guys dressed up and went to the Richmond DMV office to get licenses. They punked the staff.

"With their skin painted bright red, spray-on hair and oversized fake teeth, the Virginia men looked a little like teenagers from Pluto but the Virginia Department of Motor Vehicles issued them driver’s licenses all the same.
But after videos of the prank gained notoriety on the Internet, it was the DMV’s turn to be red-faced, and has ordered the men to pose for new license photos or lose their driving privileges."

Posted on Youtube.com, the video features scenes of Will Carsola spray-painting his face and neck bright red and Dave Stewart painting the top of his head black and sticking a row of fake buckteeth in his mouth in an Asian caricature. They each enter the DMV office and return with real licenses with photos of their new likenesses.In another video, a shaved-headed Carsola comes out of the DMV with a photo of his eyes crossed, and another friend obtains a license after spray-painting on a thick, black beard and monobrow.“We were like, ‘There’s no way this is going to work,’” Stewart said. “Even when I did the kung-fu guy, it surprised me how little they laughed. Will had red skin and they didn’t even tell him to come back when it was normal.”
The independent filmmakers, both 27, did the pranks as part of a new movie, “and it escalated from there,” Stewart said. . . .
Stewart said it was obvious that the oversized plastic teeth and spray-painted face weren’t physical disfigurements, and speculated that apathetic DMV workers probably just didn’t feel like questioning their appearance.

John,
The way some folks walk around now, it may have seemed normal.

With VCU and all the art school students nearby I would agree, except he had spray painted his face and neck red.

And they each got duplicate licenses twice with two different disguises. Here's one of the other guy's licenses. I think the crossed eyes were a nice touch.



The serious question is why didn't DMV check the pic on file for the old license before issuing a new one to someone who looked different?

It's on there for the same reason the height and weight are: identification purposes. Is it part of your job as a clerk to guess if they are being honest about their weight? Do you think the weight section on there is to profile fat people?

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I do not believe it's for profiling purposes... I agree with this.

Sam1911 said:

As the 4473 doesn't go anywhere but your gun dealer's file cabinet, there is nothing in this at all. It is simply a few more points of identification in case they ever have reason to dig up that form and try to locate the buyer of that gun.

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Not true, it also goes to the Soviet Cuban Commander in the area...at least that's what John Milius taught me.