What's your take on a Saiga-12

The Saiga is a fine trap and skeet gun once you perform the modifications I mentioned

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R I G H T...............please show me the folks who have won with one of these.......there aren't any

If you want an AK-style gun that shoots a lot of ammo quickly, and maybe hits something, get one and have fun - to compare this as having the same capability as a trap or skeet gun is ludicrous at best

As to the person mentioning the 8" barrel, besides that being regulated here in the US, the performance loss is way to great - you'd be better off with an AR carbine

I have a Saiga-12 and a Remington 1187P and honestly it's a toss-up for me (slight nod goes to the Saiga in terms of tactical usage). However, by applying some of the previously mentioned modifications to my Saiga, I can now run bird-shot just fine. I can't say that I can do that with my 1187P which likes solely the heavy stuff. For me it was moot because I don't by a tactical shotgun to shoot bird-shot (I have other shotguns for that). Bottom line is that most of the cycling issues with the Saiga 12 are almost always referring to a stock out-of-the-box gun running birdshot absent the mods to the gas system.

-Cheers

As to the person mentioning the 8" barrel, besides that being regulated here in the US, the performance loss is way to great - you'd be better off with an AR carbine

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If you live in a state that doesn't allow SBS I understand. However, fed regulations basically only require you to be litterate enough to fill out a form and a patient waiter. If the $200 is an issue then You probably shouldn't be looking at a gun that is going to run you $1700 anyways. You might also be better off not buying any shotgun as you probably cannot afford to shoot it if $200 is a deal breaker. I just got back from two days of shooting and put about $150 of ammo through the three shotguns I took (and I spent most of one day riding dirt bikes and not shooting).

What performance loss is there with an 8" shotgun? Velocity loss is deminimis. You can still achieve perfectly acceptable patterns. It does offer more flash and blast. The flash is the only thing I can think of that is a real adverse performance thing.

As far as being better off with an AR, I suppose that depends on why exactly one is getting the gun. I have a Novekse. My S12s serve different purposes. For HD I prefer a carbine to any shotgun. The only advantage the shotgun offers is terminal ballistics.

I absolutely agree about it not being a trap or skeet gun. It is one thing to shoot informal clays out in the back pasture (that is actually pretty fun to do with the saiga), real trap and skeet are another matter entirely. Anyone who has shot a proper trap gun knows there is a world of difference.

I bought a Saiga12 to use in 3-gun shooting. Some assembly was required to get the gun to shoot light bird-shot loads, reliably. I was impatient and didn't wait for the 300 round 'break-in' period. I bought a new gas plug, power puck and springs. It shot buck-shot and slugs reliably, 'right out of the box.' Now, it shoots anything reliably. It is simply a game-changer weapon. No tube fed shotgun can keep up with it, tactically.

From what I am seeing the saiga shotguns are way over priced. Then accessories are outrageous, like $100 for screw in chokes. Saiga would have to give me the gun, a credit card for gas to test the thing and 2 cases of shells. I am reasonably sure a skilled shotgunner can do just as much damage with a 8 shot maverick pump. At least trap off a spring thrower is very easy with the maverick. Target acquisition must be difficult at best with a saiga shotgun.

Ive got one. Mine hasnt been converted but has a retractable stock and some reliability work done on it. It runs like a top and is one of the most fun guns i have in the house. It puts smiles on everyones faces that shoot it.

Oneounceload said:

The Saiga is a fine trap and skeet gun once you perform the modifications I mentioned

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R I G H T...............please show me the folks who have won with one of these.......there aren't any

If you want an AK-style gun that shoots a lot of ammo quickly, and maybe hits something, get one and have fun - to compare this as having the same capability as a trap or skeet gun is ludicrous at best

As to the person mentioning the 8" barrel, besides that being regulated here in the US, the performance loss is way to great - you'd be better off with an AR carbine

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Oneounceload,

I will say that the S-12 does not make an IDEAL trap gun. The Trap game does not lend itself to magazine fed guns very well. But to say that a S-12 is incapable of competing "is ludicrous at best". I have personally beaten guys with $10k O/U's at Trap with my S-12 19" barrel with a Polychoke and Ghost Ring Sights. When I shot trap every week I would hit 22-25/25 with the saiga by hand-feeding each round for singles with the bolt held back with the bolt-hold-open.

A shotgun is a tool. A tool that can be fit to the user. A tool, that if the user uses enough, can be as effective as any other shotgun.

Please don't be so snobby and naive to believe that just because the S-12 isn't the IDEAL setup for Trap or Skeet, Does not mean it's incapable of competing or winning.

If any of you watched the Olympic Woman's Skeet Finals, you will see that many stands have a single, then double. TO do this with a Saiga you'd have to have two magazines ready, one with a single, one with a double. Then you'd have to show clear (Done on O/Us by breaking the action open) by rackign the slide back and holding it there, replacing the mag and releasing the bolt. A bit cumbersome. BUT THE TRAP/SKEET game is 2 targets MAX at a time. A Pump shotgun can easily be used in trap/skeet and no one complains. Others use Semi-auto brownings and berettas etc. No one complains.

THey see a 26" barrel with a Vented Rib Down the top and it's fine.

They see a 19" barrel with Ghost-Sights and it's OMG that is CRAP no way!

And to make such an ignorant statement as "please show me the folks who have won with one of these.......there aren't any" as to mean that the gun isn't capable? Really?

If you knew more about shotguns you'd realize that ANY shotgun is capable, just because the O/U has become the standard in the trap/skeet game (More because they have 2 shots and the max targets and allowable shots is 2) does not mean other guns are not capable of beating people who use O/Us.

Get your FUDDY HEAD OUT OF YOUR RABBIT HOLE, ELMER! (The highest road way of saying it)

Never seen one make it all the way thru a match without a malf.

malfs are slow to clear.

It' an A.K. 12 gauge... Nuff said.

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Meaning one can't hit the side of a barn from inside the barn with it?

Dom,

I can honestly say that i've seen 2 guys compete with Benelli M3/M4 convertible (Semi-Pump) shotguns. And neither made it through a course of fire without a malfunction and a timely swap to "Pump" to finish out the course. both blamed "new ammo" for the failures.

So i can make the factual statement that "I've never seen a Benelli M3 or M4 finish a course of fire without a malfunction".

Just pointing out that human failure to test/be competent with a firearm, does not equal a failure in shotgun competence.

MCgunner said:

Meaning one can't hit the side of a barn from inside the barn with it?

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MCgunner,

We 'Saiga Guys' may get a bit excited with our toy, but I assure that this would not be a 'problem.'

MCGunner,

I can assure you that wouldn't be a problem.

Fiv3r:

My Saiga .410 left a bad taste in my mouth.

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I think that somewhere in the manufacturer's literature they advise against putting a shotgun in your mouth.

LOL Meef

I have shot a Saiga 12 converted to AK stock matching the original forearm. The owner had 20 shot drums (reliable only with 2 3/4" premium shells) and five shot box (reliable with any thing 2 3/4" to 3" light skeet, slug, buckshot, etc.)

I am not a great shotgun shooter, but I think the drum is for people who play too many video games. I preferred the short box. Being able to load or unload by inserting or removing the magazine and charging/clearing the chamber is a bit more convenient than loading shells in a tube or removing them from a tube.

I shot a few rounds at large cardboard for pattern and I feel if one can shoot a regular hunting shotgun and hit a clay, they can do it with a Saiga 12. If they cannot with the Sauga 12, I suspect they could not with a regular shotgun either. Saiga 12 may simply appeal to rifle shooters who want a shotgun, and that may be the problem. Shotgun shooting is a different skill set.

Specialised trap guns are specialized for that game, and I would not expect anu field gun or hunting gun to compete equally against a specialized trap gun.

I used one for two seasons of 3 Gun. I ended up going back to my Rem 11-87. The Saiga just doesn't shoulder and point well for me and I even had Krebs' front and rear sights on it. Aerial targets are a real problem.

If a stage allows for a full mag and mag swaps at static targets, then the Saiga rules. But in my area match directors are more often designing stages that require single loading of the shotgun which drops the Saiga to the worst possible shotgun to use.

SN13 said:

Dom,

I can honestly say that i've seen 2 guys compete with Benelli M3/M4 convertible (Semi-Pump) shotguns. And neither made it through a course of fire without a malfunction and a timely swap to "Pump" to finish out the course. both blamed "new ammo" for the failures.

So i can make the factual statement that "I've never seen a Benelli M3 or M4 finish a course of fire without a malfunction".

Just pointing out that human failure to test/be competent with a firearm, does not equal a failure in shotgun competence.

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So if we arent supposed to believe our eyes, or personal experiance..... what would you suggest believing?

Internet lore?

Its the crappiest autoloading shotgun I have ever personally owned.

Never again.

Do you own it still?

Negative. unloaded it last year when the prices went nuts.

HJ857 said:

I used one for two seasons of 3 Gun. I ended up going back to my Rem 11-87. The Saiga just doesn't shoulder and point well for me and I even had Krebs' front and rear sights on it. Aerial targets are a real problem.

If a stage allows for a full mag and mag swaps at static targets, then the Saiga rules. But in my area match directors are more often designing stages that require single loading of the shotgun which drops the Saiga to the worst possible shotgun to use.

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And, unfortunately it's because the stage designers hate losing to the Saigas.

I've seen everything from "Start with shotgun unloaded and all shells in a box on the table" to "Start with gun empty and two shells in your hands only".....

The problem is, they resist change in the sport so heavily they want to tie the hands of the Saiga owners.... Imagine if they did this for rifle stages? Why aren't we writing stages specifically for LEver-action tube fed rifles? well because Box mag rifles are everywhere... the box mag shotgun? Not so much.

If you're a serious competitor, you practice situations where you have to start unloaded, or with nothing in the mag. Or have to single-load it. The easiest way to single-load the S-12 is to rack the bolt back with your left hand while you support the gun against your body and insert a shell underneath through the mag well hole. If you practice enough you can do it relatively quickly.

The point is, no shotgun fits every use perfectly. The Saiga is not the best suited for single-shot games. Nor is it the best suited for Trap or Skeet. But for 20-30rd shotgun stages, it's almost impossible to beat. And, the more rounds, the harder it is to compete against it.

Which is why I've noticed my local matches going to 8 rd stages or 12 rd stages... But god forbid we have anything less than 60 rds of rifle...

dom1104 said:

So if we arent supposed to believe our eyes, or personal experiance..... what would you suggest believing?

Internet lore?

Its the crappiest autoloading shotgun I have ever personally owned.

Never again.

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Dom,

I'm not suggesting believing internet lore.

Common B.S. Internet Lore:

AR-15 will not go 500 rounds without a full strip and clean!
A .45ACP will knock a man down!
AK-47 are so inaccurate that you can't hit anything past 50 yards!


What I am suggesting is that the S-12 is an AWESOME shotgun, But, it isn't for everyone. You need to learn it inside and out.

If you are the type who takes their guns to a gunsmith to change out a spring, the S-12 is not for you.

IF you take your gun to a smith to put new furniture on it, the S-12 isnt for you.

If you wouldn't touch any part of a gun with a dremel, metal file, or polishing wheel, EVER... the S-12 is not for you.

If you only use shotguns for games which require 2 or fewer shots, the S-12 is not for you.

On the other hand,

If you want the highest capacity 19" shotgun available over-the-counter, the S-12 is for you.

SN13 said:

Dom,

I'm not suggesting believing internet lore.

Common B.S. Internet Lore:

AR-15 will not go 500 rounds without a full strip and clean!
A .45ACP will knock a man down!
AK-47 are so inaccurate that you can't hit anything past 50 yards!


What I am suggesting is that the S-12 is an AWESOME shotgun, But, it isn't for everyone. You need to learn it inside and out.

If you are the type who takes their guns to a gunsmith to change out a spring, the S-12 is not for you.

IF you take your gun to a smith to put new furniture on it, the S-12 isnt for you.

If you wouldn't touch any part of a gun with a dremel, metal file, or polishing wheel, EVER... the S-12 is not for you.

If you only use shotguns for games which require 2 or fewer shots, the S-12 is not for you.

On the other hand,

If you want the highest capacity 19" shotgun available over-the-counter, the S-12 is for you.

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OR....

one could say that buying a gun that doesnt run, putting a ton of time, dremel, files etc is unacceptable.

Its like saying "Buy this motorcycle, it doesnt start, but if you put enough work into it, it will... oh and its 12,000 dollars."

No bueno.

Everyone has an opinion and mine is that my Saiga is hands-down my go-to tactical shotgun no holds bar. But for clays ? Not me but nor would I utilize any of my tactical SB shotguns for such (some people look at me strangely when I shoot clays with my Maverick pump 28"). That being said, I have seen guys use a S&W Governor to break clays so to each their own.

Not my cup of tea but i do see why guys like them.
I'm curious if the saiga guys find them awkward to hunt with though.

?

Just curious, is there a chart somewhere out there that shows the sizes of the various magazines available for the S12? Either a number chart or a visual chart with pictures of them on the gun?

I've searched for such a thing, but never found one, and it's something I was curious about when I was considering a S12.

What I am suggesting is that the S-12 is an AWESOME shotgun, But, it isn't for everyone.

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I personally wouldn't have used the word "awesome" but I will agree with the general statement - I do not believe there is anything inherintly wrong with the function of the S12, but the platform itself isn't for me. If I were to go for something box-fed, I'd want something that reloads at least 20 rounds at a time without a drum.