I keep a PCC around for the grandkids to shoot. I think you could include my 1894C in .357 in the same breath. If they -- the grandkids -- were around when I had to do HD or that other thing we don't talk about, the PCC and/or the levergun could end up in one of their hands. I do believe in having enough guns around to put in others' hands if the occasion arises. Which I don't expect to happen. But you never know.
HD arsenal to include PCC?
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Agreed Warp - should have noted that I had also since modified the HD plan to ensure they are behind me, plus thinking I have a lot more control of single shots with the carbine than a buckshot sweep.
LOL, I don't think anyone will disagree that a "NewBee" to shooting will mess up so I found this funny. I too am an advocate of everyone taking one or two or more IDPA matches, it not only improves your accuracy but reaction times and really helps with developing skills with your handgun. It also teaches the basics of using cover and assessing threats and which targets to shoot first, second and so on.
I too have a tactical shotgun as well as a PPC, AR carbine and a assortment of other rifles, but by far my fastest reaction times and accurate shot placement will be with either my CZ 75 P-01 or my Bersa Thunder 45 Ultra Compact Pro. (both handguns)
To me (will not be the case for everyone) this is just the most practical approach to home defense.
Good Luck and straight shooting.
Jim
As a side note, in one IDPA match, in a shoot house, I got carried away (should have used only 18 rounds), but put 31 shots in 8 bad guys in less than 42 seconds with NO POINTS DOWN (no misses). When you can do that, you do not look for a carbine or shotgun to defend your home.
This mostly comes down to your choice of round.
There are absolutely good choices in buckshot out there that don't "sweep" the way the movies portray.
For example, here are two different buckshot loads I patterned out of my shotgun (smoothbore, 18", no choke tube...in other words, totally open) at a typical home defense distance of 21 feet.
When looking at this, make sure you realize that fully half of the hole(s) in paper are from the wad, which can be ignored for purposes of penetration through walls and what not. Pretty darn tight and aimable/controllable, I'd say.
S&W AR carabine in .300 would be hard if not impossible to beat. Found new one in Gucci-flage for just over $1000, but could not buy it because ammo for .300 Whisper and new one that is about 1mm longer is made of unobtainium.:banghead: I did not want expensive alloy/steel club as baseball bats are much less expensive. My go to gun is G20 with Trijicon night sights.My primary go-to HD gun is my Benelli pump with a mounted flashlight and a mix of buck and slugs. I also keep my S&W Model 10 and Springfield XD40 nearby as well, but given the time, I am going to grab the Benelli first. Lately, though, I've been thinking a lot of consolidating calibers to include a good defensive sidearm and rifle combination for use in short-defensive perimeters. I've concluded that I need a good pistol-caliber carbine (PCC) in .40 to complement the XD40. The problem is that there are so few options available, and what is around is very expensive (with some exceptions like the KelTec but that cost is climbing, too).
Yes, I have EBR's in various calibers and I tote those around quite a bit in outdoor shoots. If I really felt myself in a bind, though, I would rather have a single cailber that would serve both sidearm and rifle duties. Logistics is a big consideration to me. As for available models, the Beretta CX4 and KelTec Sub-2000 come to mind, but really there's not much else out there with the exception of a few lower-rate production models from other manufacturers.
With everyone talking about HD loadouts, most of the focus has been on the AR platform. Nothing wrong with that, of course, and I'm a big fan of EBR's, but for toting around in tight quarters (I live in city limits), I would prefer a PCC and sidearm in the same caliber. With the HK MP5 being one of the most successful PCC's ever -- as well as one of the most popular guns ever made -- I'm surprised that the gun manufacturers haven't produced more models over the years. Instead of more PCC's coming out to complement sidearms, the trend is that more 5.56/.223 pistols are being produced to complement the AR rifles. A pistol of this nature seems a bit unwieldy to me, but then again I haven't shot one, so I'm only supposing on how it would handle.
Well, I guess it's off to Gunbroker.com to find a CX4 or Sub-2K in .40S&W. There's slim pickings out there in .40 and what I do find is $$$$$. Oh well, I suppose it's the age we live in now...
Anything with the Federal Flight Control Wad, or Hornady Versa-tite wad technology (Hornady basically paid Federal for their tech and gave it hteir own name) should be capable of those kinds of groups.
Federal has the most choices that I have seen, marketed as law enforcement or personal defense, they are identical.
Model numbers like :
LE127-00
LE132-00
LE132-1B
PD132-00
Etc.
That's what you want to look for to get those groups.
Federal has the most choices that I have seen, marketed as law enforcement or personal defense, they are identical.
Model numbers like :
LE127-00
LE132-00
LE132-1B
PD132-00
Etc.
That's what you want to look for to get those groups.
That's great. It really is. But it doesn't give those rounds the advantages in effectiveness offered by most shoulder fire weapons.
A rifle firing a rifle round is still going to be more effective at stopping an attacker than a handgun firing a handgun round.
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Then we get into the angels-dancing-on-pinheads question of how one weights speed of hits vs. effectiveness of delivered payload.
(One being quantifiable, the other much less so.)
If a marginal hit "in time" is infinitely better than a perfect hit "too late" then we're back to the conundrum of whether to chose the speed of a handgun over the stopping power (
Hey, you said it, not me! LOL.) of a long gun.Of course that discussion then makes the PCC out to be rather the WORST of both worlds...
Then we get into the angels-dancing-on-pinheads question of how one weights speed of hits vs. effectiveness of delivered payload.
(One being quantifiable, the other much less so.)
If a marginal hit "in time" is infinitely better than a perfect hit "too late" then we're back to the conundrum of whether to chose the speed of a handgun over the stopping power (
Of course that discussion then makes the PCC out to be rather the WORST of both worlds...
Who says the handgun is faster (to get on target and then to hit with) than the carbine?
Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Well, I do, because for me it is. No matter how many times I run trials and scenarios, I'm far faster with the handgun.
(Not saying it would be for everyone else -- read post 14.)
(Not saying it would be for everyone else -- read post 14.)
Ruh roh, here we go...
Moving right along
, if the PCC is compact with a 16" barrel, it does offer maneuverability and perhaps speed if the shooter has time to prepare. The higher muzzle velocity gives the PCC much more punch than its handgun equivalent. Its small size (as compared to a full length rifle and shotgun) and shoulder-fired setup are a plus.Sam1911
Moderator Emeritus
Is a PCC with a 16" barrel a lot more compact than an AR with a 16" barrel? Some are a bit slimmer, but I'm not sure there's enough benefit in that to choose one. I mean, if the velocity boost between handgun and carbine is good, the velocity boost between PCC and 5.56 is probably considerably better.
True, but if it shot 5.56, then it wouldn't be a PCC, right?
Did I mention that I also want a PCC, well, just to add to the collection? I haven't picked up an AR carbine in a long time (my AR's are longer), but I know the Colt M4 is pretty small and maneuverable. The Beretta CX4 feels quite small, too, and points well. And I will admit that just because a gun shoots a pistol caliber doesn't mean that it's small or light. For those that have handled a Tommy Gun, they know how hefty that momma is.
So, back to my "ideal" PCC -- small, light, in .40S&W preferably, and sub $800. If I can score a deal on the Beretta, then I'm there. Right now, though, only the KelTec Sub2K fits my requirements. The Ruger Police Carbine would, too, but I can't find one under $800. Still looking...
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r1derbike
Member
This is one of the better threads I've read here.
Thanks for other eye-opening possibilities!
Now for the choice; I'd love the CX4 Storm. I have a nearly exact replica in .177 CO2 powered from Umarex, that I'd love to get in a smaller pistol caliber than .45acp, as I already have an XDS. This would fill the gap between my sidearm and AR. A snappy .40 round would be quite tame in the CX4. I don't like high pressure loads in a pistol, but this seems like a match made in heaven.
Man, I love this thread, thanks!
Thanks for other eye-opening possibilities!
Now for the choice; I'd love the CX4 Storm. I have a nearly exact replica in .177 CO2 powered from Umarex, that I'd love to get in a smaller pistol caliber than .45acp, as I already have an XDS. This would fill the gap between my sidearm and AR. A snappy .40 round would be quite tame in the CX4. I don't like high pressure loads in a pistol, but this seems like a match made in heaven.
Man, I love this thread, thanks!
Ed Ames
Member
The problem with this topic is that these threads don't reveal much except the biases and assumptions of the participants. That's true for a lot of topics of course but it seems to be more true for PCCs than most.
In my case, I'll answer in a pedantic way. Surprise surprise.
An arsenal is a collection of weapons or military equipment stored. In other words, the gun in your hand or holster is not part of your arsenal. The arsenal is what you have in case of need, not what you are using. I would argue that when it comes to home defense, having a firearm loaded and at the ready is a form of use, not storage.
So, does it make sense to have a PCC in your arsenal? Absolutely. It is another gun, and one that can use a common type of ammo. Given the choice between three 5.56 ARs or two 5.56 ARs and a carbine that feeds your most common handgun ammo, the mix with the PCC increases the odds that you will have at least one carbine with ammo. Honestly the only reason for not having them is financial difficulty. If you can't afford them, then you shouldn't have them. Otherwise it's just common sense.
Is it also common sense to use a PCC for HD? Remember, I'm counting having it "at the ready" as use. Only if it's your most effective available option. That is unlikely to be the case though. Most of the time the answer is no.
I have a few PCCs. I have them because they are fun. I have them because in some circumstances they would allow me to tap my relatively plentiful handgun ammo for use in a shoulder-fired (longer range) arm. I also have them because I sometimes operate in space and weight constrained situations and bringing two kinds of ammo, two types of magazine, two different bore snakes, and so on doesn't make sense in those situations. They are in my arsenal.
That doesn't mean I am using them (have them at the ready) right now, or that you should use them when you're at home.
In my case, I'll answer in a pedantic way. Surprise surprise.
An arsenal is a collection of weapons or military equipment stored. In other words, the gun in your hand or holster is not part of your arsenal. The arsenal is what you have in case of need, not what you are using. I would argue that when it comes to home defense, having a firearm loaded and at the ready is a form of use, not storage.
So, does it make sense to have a PCC in your arsenal? Absolutely. It is another gun, and one that can use a common type of ammo. Given the choice between three 5.56 ARs or two 5.56 ARs and a carbine that feeds your most common handgun ammo, the mix with the PCC increases the odds that you will have at least one carbine with ammo. Honestly the only reason for not having them is financial difficulty. If you can't afford them, then you shouldn't have them. Otherwise it's just common sense.
Is it also common sense to use a PCC for HD? Remember, I'm counting having it "at the ready" as use. Only if it's your most effective available option. That is unlikely to be the case though. Most of the time the answer is no.
I have a few PCCs. I have them because they are fun. I have them because in some circumstances they would allow me to tap my relatively plentiful handgun ammo for use in a shoulder-fired (longer range) arm. I also have them because I sometimes operate in space and weight constrained situations and bringing two kinds of ammo, two types of magazine, two different bore snakes, and so on doesn't make sense in those situations. They are in my arsenal.
That doesn't mean I am using them (have them at the ready) right now, or that you should use them when you're at home.
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Yes quite a strange look - a direct result of the recoil displacement structure, but the thing barely moves when you shoot it and sits tight when shouldered. Same round as my USC but that price...Didn't think about the Kriss, but that's a PCC contender also. That Vector sure is a fugly gun, though, but I'm not looking for a beauty queen in HD.
Dirty Bob
Member
Or you could buy a Mech-Tech. If you have a 1911 or a .40 Glock, you can keep costs down. My understanding is that a 1911 can be used with a 1911-style M-T of any caliber, because the lower frame is the same for all 1911 calibers. It's made .40 S&W and 10mm tempting, but I've resisted.
I have a .45 ACP model, with a dedicated 1911 "lower." I added a full length rail and sights, along with a homemade fixed stock. It's been reliable during the limited testing I've been able to do (limited ammo), and it's a heckuva lot of fun.
I see the advantages of the PCC for HD being:
Low report, low muzzle blast (esp. in low-pressure rounds like .45 ACP), less flash. All of these can be good things indoors.
"Friendly" to less-experienced users, due to reasons above, along with modest recoil.
I've read of the overpenetration issues with PCCs, but you can set up bookcases and other "backstops" in likely spots. If I ever use mine in HD, I hope to use it from a fixed location. I'm not a SEAL or a SWAT officer, and I don't ever plan to do house clearing, especially with a long gun.
Perhaps one of the best reasons for a PCC is that they're so much fun!
All my best,
Dirty Bob
I have a .45 ACP model, with a dedicated 1911 "lower." I added a full length rail and sights, along with a homemade fixed stock. It's been reliable during the limited testing I've been able to do (limited ammo), and it's a heckuva lot of fun.
I see the advantages of the PCC for HD being:
Low report, low muzzle blast (esp. in low-pressure rounds like .45 ACP), less flash. All of these can be good things indoors.
"Friendly" to less-experienced users, due to reasons above, along with modest recoil.
I've read of the overpenetration issues with PCCs, but you can set up bookcases and other "backstops" in likely spots. If I ever use mine in HD, I hope to use it from a fixed location. I'm not a SEAL or a SWAT officer, and I don't ever plan to do house clearing, especially with a long gun.
Perhaps one of the best reasons for a PCC is that they're so much fun!
All my best,
Dirty Bob
Attachments
Pendantic? Indeed. I feel the air getting sucked out of the room.
The great thing about language is that words can have several meanings. I've highlighted the appropriate definition for the context of this discussion.
ar•se•nal [ahr-suh-nl, ahrs-nuhl]
noun
1. a place of storage or a magazine containing arms and military equipment for land or naval service.
2. a government establishment where military equipment or munitions are manufactured.
3. a collection or supply of weapons or munitions.
4. a collection or supply of anything; store: He came to the meeting with an impressive arsenal of new research data.
As for the usefulness of this thread, and others like them, the fact that people are offering their opinions is precisely the point. There is no absolutism here. The readers can then take these various viewpoints, apply their own reason and logic, and ultimately derive their own plan of action that suits their needs and circumstances.
Dirty Bob
Member
9mm+: You make a lot of good points, and I can't say I disagree. My preferred long gun to meet trouble with is a WWII US-made Enfield in .303 Brit. Plenty of power and reach, good handling, and a 10-round mag that can be reloaded quickly with chargers. I have total confidence in the Enfield and its cartridge.
Unfortunately, I'm the only person in my family that likes to shoot it. For a recoil-shy person like my wife, a 9mm handgun and/or a PCC would be a worthy choice, depending on the situation.
I may choose a PCC indoors, but if I were working outside after a hurricane or other event, I would have the Enfield or a shotgun within easy reach. For me, the PCC is just another tool in the toolbox. Contrary to the many gunzine articles, there is no "ultimate" defensive firearm, IMHO.
Respectfully,
Dirty Bob
Unfortunately, I'm the only person in my family that likes to shoot it. For a recoil-shy person like my wife, a 9mm handgun and/or a PCC would be a worthy choice, depending on the situation.
I may choose a PCC indoors, but if I were working outside after a hurricane or other event, I would have the Enfield or a shotgun within easy reach. For me, the PCC is just another tool in the toolbox. Contrary to the many gunzine articles, there is no "ultimate" defensive firearm, IMHO.
Respectfully,
Dirty Bob
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