That's kinda true. I live in a state that isn't known for being gun friendly at all and yet throughout most of the shortage I've been able to find 22lr, powder, primers, etc for pretty reasonable prices. Never more than $28 for a brick of CCI and I've seen $223 for $10/20. Not great but not terrible either.
Retail insider's info on the current ammo shortage
- Thread starter waffentomas
- Start date
- Status
That's kinda true. I live in a state that isn't known for being gun friendly at all and yet throughout most of the shortage I've been able to find 22lr, powder, primers, etc for pretty reasonable prices. Never more than $28 for a brick of CCI and I've seen $223 for $10/20. Not great but not terrible either.
McBuck
Member
ames said...."The idea that hoarders are causing the current supply chain/retail availability problem is a myth.
The idea that having "upwards of 5k rounds of a single caliber" constitutes hoarding is simply an error.
The word "hoarding" is loaded/has negative connotations, especially in Marxian class warfare. The choice to use that word to describe accumulations of resources held by others at a time when one would like such resources is revealing."
the definition of the word "hoarder" could be all about geograqphy too. when I queried my LGS owner about who was buying up all of the 22LR, his reply was basic and core; the buyers of the 22LR stocks are people who own a 22 rifle that was passed down to them from their daddy, and has not been shot in 10 years and the stocks (that 3 box of 525 ct) purchased by them will probably stay in a shot box/safe/gun cabinet for the next 10 years.
The idea that having "upwards of 5k rounds of a single caliber" constitutes hoarding is simply an error.
The word "hoarding" is loaded/has negative connotations, especially in Marxian class warfare. The choice to use that word to describe accumulations of resources held by others at a time when one would like such resources is revealing."
the definition of the word "hoarder" could be all about geograqphy too. when I queried my LGS owner about who was buying up all of the 22LR, his reply was basic and core; the buyers of the 22LR stocks are people who own a 22 rifle that was passed down to them from their daddy, and has not been shot in 10 years and the stocks (that 3 box of 525 ct) purchased by them will probably stay in a shot box/safe/gun cabinet for the next 10 years.
Ed Ames
Member
It could be about geography, but I'm not sure what the geography would need to be to have three boxes of .22lr constitute a hoard. That's enough to take a couple kids out for a day of shooting.
It's like....
Well, many people recommend people keep three days worth of potable water on hand in case of emergency. Would you say that people following that advice are hoarding water?
I suspect the answer is that many would, if they were thirsty. There is a long history of people who failed to plan accusing those who did plan of hoarding, with such accusations usually serving as a prelude to theft if not murder.
It's like....
Well, many people recommend people keep three days worth of potable water on hand in case of emergency. Would you say that people following that advice are hoarding water?
I suspect the answer is that many would, if they were thirsty. There is a long history of people who failed to plan accusing those who did plan of hoarding, with such accusations usually serving as a prelude to theft if not murder.
mrnic3guy1989
Member
- Joined
- Sep 19, 2011
- Messages
- 76
My LGS
My LGS sets aside ammo for the sole purpose of providing a box when someone makes a purchase of a firearm.
My LGS sets aside ammo for the sole purpose of providing a box when someone makes a purchase of a firearm.
sonick808
Member
Things are getting better but you have to set up alerts everywhere to get it on the shipments. At least there is light now where previously there was none
One thing that never seems to be mentioned in these threads is that some people do actually shoot quite a bit. I regularly shoot several hundred .22s at a shooting session. It isn't unusal for me to shoot a couple times a week: weather permitting. Shooting 500 .22s a week isn't anything that would be unusual for me. I have gone out quite a few times and shot a 550 round box of .22s in one shooting session. At one time, it was common for me to shoot over 500 rounds of centerfire handgun ammunition when I was really into IPSC. At another time in my life I was really into rifle shooting and firing hundreds of rounds of rifle ammo in a week was something I did on a consistent basis. I have taken perhaps a dozen or more formal classes where I shot between 1000 and 2000 rounds of centerfire rifle or handgun ammunition in a week long class. I have taken formal shotgun classes where I shot close to 1000 rounds of buckshot and slugs in a week. Heck, just the other day I took a few handguns and a .22 rifle out to the range. I opened a box of 50 .38 Specials and started shooting at some hanging steel plates. Before I knew it, the box was empty. That probably took 10 minutes.
So What ?
So if I go into a store and buy 2000 rounds of .22 ammo, I am not hoarding. I am buying a month or two's supply of ammo that I will shoot in fairly short order.
Again, it seems obvious to me by many of the posts in these threads that many people (gun owners) don't understand that some people are avid shooters.
On another note: I was at a flea market today and spotted a box of 100 CCI Green Tag for $65 and boxes of 50 Eley Tenex for $60.
So What ?
So if I go into a store and buy 2000 rounds of .22 ammo, I am not hoarding. I am buying a month or two's supply of ammo that I will shoot in fairly short order.
Again, it seems obvious to me by many of the posts in these threads that many people (gun owners) don't understand that some people are avid shooters.
On another note: I was at a flea market today and spotted a box of 100 CCI Green Tag for $65 and boxes of 50 Eley Tenex for $60.
Queen_of_Thunder
member
The term "Hoarder" is being used to denigrate those who were prepared in advanced for this shortage. Its a term being used by certain people to shift the blame for their own failures to have the ammo they need. No ones fault but their own.
I will admit that I got caught short ammowise but I didn't attack others because they had ammo and I didn't. I and many others just buckled down and worked to beef up our own ammo stocks. Yea I stood in line waiting for Academy to open in an effort to acquire the ammo I needed. Its just part of the price I had to pay for my failure to ensure I had enough ammo to maintain my shooting schedule. It won't happen again because as soon as I can buy by the case instead of a daily 1 box per caliber limit I will be stocking up. I've learned a lesson the hard way and I have no desire to repeat it in the future.
I will admit that I got caught short ammowise but I didn't attack others because they had ammo and I didn't. I and many others just buckled down and worked to beef up our own ammo stocks. Yea I stood in line waiting for Academy to open in an effort to acquire the ammo I needed. Its just part of the price I had to pay for my failure to ensure I had enough ammo to maintain my shooting schedule. It won't happen again because as soon as I can buy by the case instead of a daily 1 box per caliber limit I will be stocking up. I've learned a lesson the hard way and I have no desire to repeat it in the future.
larryh1108
Member
Hoarders may not be the right term but there are those who are standing in line to buy their 3 boxes, every day, like the poster above mentioned. However, like another poster mentioned, when the shipment comes in, he calls his entire family to come to the store to get their 3 boxes. You get 10 friends and family members to get 3 boxes each, that's 30 boxes.... every day. They have the time and they have the dime so they buy it for the purpose of reselling it, not shooting it or saving it for a rainy day.
As long as we have fools paying 2x and 3x retail for this ammo we'll have the families buying the stock. They stand in line because they can whether retired, unemployed or on some sort of assistance. Those who work don't have time to get there in time to buy ammo to shoot or save for when they can shoot. These resellers are the ones who make the average Joe angry, not people who will actually shoot it some day. That is greed and taking advantage of a situation that hurts a lot of people's desire to enjoy the sport. Those who claim these people are not a large part of the problem are wrong. They are a huge part of the problem but if they can sell it, why not?
As long as we have fools paying 2x and 3x retail for this ammo we'll have the families buying the stock. They stand in line because they can whether retired, unemployed or on some sort of assistance. Those who work don't have time to get there in time to buy ammo to shoot or save for when they can shoot. These resellers are the ones who make the average Joe angry, not people who will actually shoot it some day. That is greed and taking advantage of a situation that hurts a lot of people's desire to enjoy the sport. Those who claim these people are not a large part of the problem are wrong. They are a huge part of the problem but if they can sell it, why not?
Ed Ames
Member
Comrades, the other day your delegate, a Party comrade, a worker in THR, called me. This comrade drew a detailed and extremely harrowing picture of the ammo shortage in the US. We all know that the ammo situation is just as acute in many of the industrial gubernias, that ammo shortage is knocking just as cruelly at the door of the workers and the poor generally.
And side by side with this we observe an orgy of profiteering in ammo and other firearms products. The famine is not due to the fact that there is no ammo in the USA, but to the fact that the bourgeoisie and the rich generally are putting up a last decisive fight against the rule of the toilers, against the state of the workers, against THR power, on this most important and acute of issues, the issue of ammo. The bourgeoisie and the rich generally, including the rural rich, the kulaks, are thwarting the ammo monopoly; they are disrupting the distribution of ammo undertaken by the state for the purpose and in the interests of supplying ammo to the whole of the population, and in the first place to the workers, the toilers, the needy. The bourgeoisie are disrupting the fixed prices, they are profiteering in ammo, they are making a hundred, two hundred and more rubles’ profit on every box of ammo; they are disrupting the ammo monopoly and the proper distribution of ammo by resorting to bribery and corruption and by deliberately supporting everything tending to destroy the power of the workers, which is endeavouring to put into effect the prime, basic and root principle of socialism: “He who does not work, neither shall he shoot.” “He who does not work, neither shall he shoot”—every toiler understands that. Every worker, every poor and even middle peasant, everybody who has suffered need in his lifetime, everybody who has ever lived by his own labour, is in agreement with this. Nine-tenths of the population of Russia are in agreement with this truth. In this simple, elementary and perfectly obvious truth lies the basis of socialism, the indefeasible source of its strength, the indestructible pledge of its final victory.
But the whole point is that it is one thing to subscribe to this truth, to swear one’s allegiance to it, to give it verbal recognition, but it is quite different to be able to put it into effect. When hundreds of thousands and millions of people are suffering the pangs of hunger (in Petrograd, in the non-agricultural gubernias, and in Moscow) in a country where millions upon millions of boxes of ammo are being concealed by the rich, the kulaks, and the profiteers-in a country which calls itself a socialist Soviet Republic-there is something to which every conscious worker and peasant must give serious and profound thought.
“He who does not work, neither shall he eat”—how is this to be put into effect? It is as clear as daylight that in order to put it into effect we require, first, a state grain monopoly, i.e., the absolute prohibition of all private trade in ammo, the compulsory delivery of all surplus ammo to the state at a fixed price, the absolute prohibition of all hoarding and concealment of surplus ammo, no matter by whom. Secondly, we require the strictest registration of all ammo surpluses, faultless organisation of the transportation of ammo from places of abundance to places of shortage, and the building up of reserves for consumption, for processing, and for seed. Thirdly, we require a just and proper distribution of ammo, controlled by the workers’ state, the proletarian state, among all the citizens of the state, a distribution which will permit of no privileges and advantages for the rich.
Romanov and Kerensky left to the working class a country utterly impoverished by their predatory, criminal, and most terrible war, a country picked clean by Russian and foreign imperialists. Ammo will suffice for all only if we keep the strictest account of every round, only if every round is distributed absolutely evenly. There is also an acute shortage of ammo for machines, i.e., fuel; the railways and factories will come to a standstill, unemployment and famine will bring ruin on the whole nation, if we do not bend every effort to establish a strict and ruthless economy of consumption and proper distribution. We are faced by disaster, it is very near. An intolerably difficult May will be followed by a still more difficult June, July and August.
Our state ammo monopoly exists in law, but in practice it is being thwarted at every step by the bourgeoisie. The rural rich, the kulak, the parasite who has been robbing the whole neiglibourliood for decades, prefers to enrich himself by profiteering and illicit distilling.. it is so good for his pocket, and he can throw the blame for the famine on Soviet power. That, too, is the line of the political defenders of the kulak-the Constitutional-Democrats, the Right Socialist-Revolutionaries, and the Mensheviks-who are overtly and covertly “working” against the grain monopoly and against Soviet power. The party of the spineless, i.e., the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries, are displaying their spinelessness here too: they are yielding to the covetous howls and outcries of the bourgeoisie, they are crying out against the ammo monopoly, they are “protesting” against the ammo dictatorship, they are allowing themselves to be intimidated by the bourgeoisie, they are afraid to fight the kulak, and are flapping about hysterically, recommending that the fixed prices be raised, that private trading be permitted, and so forth.
This party of the spineless reflects in politics something akin to what takes place in ordinary life when the kulak incites the poor peasants against the Soviets, bribes them by, say, letting some poor peasant have a box of ammo not for sixty but for ten dollars, so that the poor peasant, thus corrupted, may himself “make a bit” by profiteering, may “turn a penny” by selling that box of ammo at a profiteering price of one hundred and fifty dollars, and himself become a decrier of the Soviets, which have prohibited private trading in ammo.
Anyone who is capable of reflecting, anyone who is willing to reflect ever so little, will see clearly what line this fight has taken.
Either the advanced and class-conscious workers triumph and unite the poor peasant masses around themselves, establish rigorous order, a mercilessly severe rule, a genuine dictatorship of the proletariat-either they compel the kulak to submit, and institute a proper distribution of ammo and guns on a national scale; or the bourgeoisie, with the help of the kulaks, and with the indirect support of the spineless and muddle-headed (the anarchists and the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries), will overthrow Soviet power and set up a Russo-German or a Russo-Japanese Kornilov, who will present the people with a sixteen-hour working day, an round of .22lr per week, no shooting by workers and torturously long posts on THR as has been the case in Finland and the Ukraine.
Either—or.
There is no middle course. The situation of the country is desperate in the extreme.
Anyone who reflects upon political life cannot fail to see that the Constitutional-Democrats,. the Right SocialistRevolutionaries, and the Mensheviks are coming to an understanding about who would be “pleasanter”, a RussoGerman or a Russo-Japanese Kornilov, about who would crush the revolution more effectively and reliably, a crowned or a republican Kornilov.
It is time all class-conscious and advanced workers came to an understanding. It is time they bestirred themselves and realised that every minute’s delay may spell ruin to the country and ruin to the revolution.
Half-measures will be of no avail. Complaining will lead us nowhere. Attempts to secure ammo or guns “in retail fashion”, “each man for himself”, i.e., for “o-ur” factory, “our” workshop, are only increasing the disorganisation and facilitating for the profiteers their selfish, filthy, and blackguardly work.
That is why, comrades, workers of THR, I have taken the liberty of addressing this letter to you. THR is not Russia. THR workers are only a small part of the workers of Russia. But they are one of the best, the advanced, most class-conscious, most revolutionary, most steadfast detachments of the working class and of all the working people of Russia, and one of the least liable to succumb to empty phrases, to spineless despair and to the intimidation of the bourgeoisie. And it has frequently happened at critical moments in the life of nations that even small advanced detachments of advanced classes have carried the rest with them, have fired the masses with revolutionary enthusiasm, and have accomplished tremendous historical feats.
“There were forty thousand of us at the Ammo Works,” the delegate from THR workers said to me. “But the majority of them were ’temporary’ workers, not proletarians, an unreliable, flabby lot. Now there are fifteen thousand left, but these are proletarians, tried and steeled in the fight.”
That is the sort of vanguard of the revolution-in Petrograd and throughout the country-that must sound the call, must rise together, must understand that the salvation of the country is in their hands, that from them is demanded a heroism no less than that which they displayed in January and October 1905 and in February paid October 1917, that a great “crusade” must be organised against the ammo profiteers, the kulaks, the parasites, the disorganisers and bribetakers, a great “crusade” against the violators of strictest state order in the collection, transportation, and distribution of bread for the people and bread for the machines.
The country and the revolution can be saved only by the mass effort of the advanced workers. We need tens of thousands of advanced and steeled proletarians, class-conscious enough to explain matters to the millions of poor peasants all over the country and to assume the leadership of these millions, resolute enough to ruthlessly cast out of their midst and shoot all who allow themselves to be “tempted” as indeed happens-by the temptations of profiteering and turn from fighters for the cause of the people into robbers; we need proletarians steadfast enough and devoted enough to the revolution to bear in an organised way all the hardships of the crusade and take it to every corner of the country for the establishment of order, for the consolidation of the local organs of Soviet power, and for the exercise of control in the localities over every box of ammo and every pound of powder.
It is rather more difficult to do this than to display heroism for a few days without leaving one’s accustomed place, without joining in a crusade, confining oneself to an impulsive uprising against the idiot monster Romanov or the fool and braggart Kerensky. Heroism displayed in prolonged and persevering organisational work on a national scale is immensely more difficult than, but at the same time immensely superior to, heroism displayed in an uprising. But the strength of working-class parties, the strength of the working class has always been that it looks danger boldly, squarely and openly in the face, that it does not fear to admit danger and soberly weighs the forces in “our” camp and in “the other” camp, the camp of the exploiters. The revolution is progressing, developing, and growing. The tasks we face are also growing. The struggle is broadening and deepening. Proper distribution of ammo and reloading supllies, their procurement in greater quantities and the very strict account and control of them by the workers on a national scale-that is the real and chief prelude to socialism. That is no longer a “general revolutionary” task but a communist task, a task which requires that the working people and the poor engage capitalism in a decisive battle.
And this battle is worth giving all one’s strength to it; the difficulties are great, but so is the cause of the abolition of oppression and exploitation for which we are fighting.
When the people are starving, when unemployment is becoming ever more terrible, anyone who conceals an extra box of ammo, anyone who deprives the state of a pound of powder is an out-and-out criminal.
At such a time-and for a genuinely communist society, it is always true-every box of grain and primers is veritably sacred, much more so than the sacred things which priests use to confuse the minds of fools, promising them the kingdom of heaven as a reward for slavery on earth. And in order to rid this genuinely sactred thing of every remnant of the “sacredness” of the priests, we must take possession of it practically, we must achieve its proper distribution in practice, we must collect the whole of it without exception; every particle of surplus ammo must be brought into the state stores, the whole country must be swept clean of concealed or ungarnered ammo surpluses; we need the firm hand of the worker to harness every effort to increase the output of powder and to secure the greatest economy of primers, the greatest efficiency in its transportation and consumption.
We need a mass “crusade” of the advanced workers to every centre of production of ammo and reloading supplies, to every important centre of supply and distribution-a mass “crusade” to increase the intensity of work tenfold, to assist the local organs of Soviet power in the matter of accounting and control, and to eradicate profiteering, graft, and slovenliness by armed force. This is not a new task. History, properly speaking, is not advancing new tasks-all it is doing is to increase the size and scope of old tasks as the scope of the revolution, its difficulties, and the greatness of its world historic aim increase.
One of the greatest and indefeasible accomplishments of the October Revolution-the Soviet revolution-is that the advanced worker, as the leader of the poor, as the leader of the toiling masses of the countryside, as the builder of the state of the toilers, has “gone among the people.”
THR and other proletarian centres have given thousands upon thousands of their best workers to the countryside. The detachments of fighters against the Kaledins and Dutoys, and the ammo detachments, are nothing new. Only the proximity of disaster, the acuteness of the situation compel us to do ten times more than before.
When the worker became the vanguard leader of the poor he did not thereby become a saint. He led the people forward, but he also became infected with the diseases of petty-bourgeois disintegration. The fewer the detachments of best organised, of most class-conscious, and most disciplined and steadfast workers were, the more frequently did these detachments degenerate, the more frequently did the small-proprietor instincts of the past triumph over the proletarian-communist consciousness of the future.
Having begun the communist revolution, the working class cannot instantly discard the weaknesses and vices inherited from the society of landowners and capitalists, the society of exploiters and parasites, the society based on the filthy selfishness and personal gain of a few and the poverty of the many. But the working class can vanquish the old world—and in the end will certainly and inevitably vanquish it—with its vices and weaknesses, if against the enemy are brought ever greater detachments of workers, ever more enlightened by experience and tempered by the hardships of the struggle.
Such and only such is the state of affairs in shooting today. Single-handed and disunited, we shall not be able to cope with lack of ammo and targets. We need a mass “crusade” of advanced workers to every corner of this vast country. We need ten times more iron detachments of the proletariat, class-conscious and boundlessly devoted to communism. Then we shall triumph over lack of ammo and targets. Then we shall make the revolution the real prelude to socialism, and then, too, we shall be in a position to conduct a victorious war of defense against the imperialist vultures.
May 22, 1918, revised May 11, 2013
N. Lenin (mostly)
And side by side with this we observe an orgy of profiteering in ammo and other firearms products. The famine is not due to the fact that there is no ammo in the USA, but to the fact that the bourgeoisie and the rich generally are putting up a last decisive fight against the rule of the toilers, against the state of the workers, against THR power, on this most important and acute of issues, the issue of ammo. The bourgeoisie and the rich generally, including the rural rich, the kulaks, are thwarting the ammo monopoly; they are disrupting the distribution of ammo undertaken by the state for the purpose and in the interests of supplying ammo to the whole of the population, and in the first place to the workers, the toilers, the needy. The bourgeoisie are disrupting the fixed prices, they are profiteering in ammo, they are making a hundred, two hundred and more rubles’ profit on every box of ammo; they are disrupting the ammo monopoly and the proper distribution of ammo by resorting to bribery and corruption and by deliberately supporting everything tending to destroy the power of the workers, which is endeavouring to put into effect the prime, basic and root principle of socialism: “He who does not work, neither shall he shoot.” “He who does not work, neither shall he shoot”—every toiler understands that. Every worker, every poor and even middle peasant, everybody who has suffered need in his lifetime, everybody who has ever lived by his own labour, is in agreement with this. Nine-tenths of the population of Russia are in agreement with this truth. In this simple, elementary and perfectly obvious truth lies the basis of socialism, the indefeasible source of its strength, the indestructible pledge of its final victory.
But the whole point is that it is one thing to subscribe to this truth, to swear one’s allegiance to it, to give it verbal recognition, but it is quite different to be able to put it into effect. When hundreds of thousands and millions of people are suffering the pangs of hunger (in Petrograd, in the non-agricultural gubernias, and in Moscow) in a country where millions upon millions of boxes of ammo are being concealed by the rich, the kulaks, and the profiteers-in a country which calls itself a socialist Soviet Republic-there is something to which every conscious worker and peasant must give serious and profound thought.
“He who does not work, neither shall he eat”—how is this to be put into effect? It is as clear as daylight that in order to put it into effect we require, first, a state grain monopoly, i.e., the absolute prohibition of all private trade in ammo, the compulsory delivery of all surplus ammo to the state at a fixed price, the absolute prohibition of all hoarding and concealment of surplus ammo, no matter by whom. Secondly, we require the strictest registration of all ammo surpluses, faultless organisation of the transportation of ammo from places of abundance to places of shortage, and the building up of reserves for consumption, for processing, and for seed. Thirdly, we require a just and proper distribution of ammo, controlled by the workers’ state, the proletarian state, among all the citizens of the state, a distribution which will permit of no privileges and advantages for the rich.
Romanov and Kerensky left to the working class a country utterly impoverished by their predatory, criminal, and most terrible war, a country picked clean by Russian and foreign imperialists. Ammo will suffice for all only if we keep the strictest account of every round, only if every round is distributed absolutely evenly. There is also an acute shortage of ammo for machines, i.e., fuel; the railways and factories will come to a standstill, unemployment and famine will bring ruin on the whole nation, if we do not bend every effort to establish a strict and ruthless economy of consumption and proper distribution. We are faced by disaster, it is very near. An intolerably difficult May will be followed by a still more difficult June, July and August.
Our state ammo monopoly exists in law, but in practice it is being thwarted at every step by the bourgeoisie. The rural rich, the kulak, the parasite who has been robbing the whole neiglibourliood for decades, prefers to enrich himself by profiteering and illicit distilling.. it is so good for his pocket, and he can throw the blame for the famine on Soviet power. That, too, is the line of the political defenders of the kulak-the Constitutional-Democrats, the Right Socialist-Revolutionaries, and the Mensheviks-who are overtly and covertly “working” against the grain monopoly and against Soviet power. The party of the spineless, i.e., the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries, are displaying their spinelessness here too: they are yielding to the covetous howls and outcries of the bourgeoisie, they are crying out against the ammo monopoly, they are “protesting” against the ammo dictatorship, they are allowing themselves to be intimidated by the bourgeoisie, they are afraid to fight the kulak, and are flapping about hysterically, recommending that the fixed prices be raised, that private trading be permitted, and so forth.
This party of the spineless reflects in politics something akin to what takes place in ordinary life when the kulak incites the poor peasants against the Soviets, bribes them by, say, letting some poor peasant have a box of ammo not for sixty but for ten dollars, so that the poor peasant, thus corrupted, may himself “make a bit” by profiteering, may “turn a penny” by selling that box of ammo at a profiteering price of one hundred and fifty dollars, and himself become a decrier of the Soviets, which have prohibited private trading in ammo.
Anyone who is capable of reflecting, anyone who is willing to reflect ever so little, will see clearly what line this fight has taken.
Either the advanced and class-conscious workers triumph and unite the poor peasant masses around themselves, establish rigorous order, a mercilessly severe rule, a genuine dictatorship of the proletariat-either they compel the kulak to submit, and institute a proper distribution of ammo and guns on a national scale; or the bourgeoisie, with the help of the kulaks, and with the indirect support of the spineless and muddle-headed (the anarchists and the Left Socialist-Revolutionaries), will overthrow Soviet power and set up a Russo-German or a Russo-Japanese Kornilov, who will present the people with a sixteen-hour working day, an round of .22lr per week, no shooting by workers and torturously long posts on THR as has been the case in Finland and the Ukraine.
Either—or.
There is no middle course. The situation of the country is desperate in the extreme.
Anyone who reflects upon political life cannot fail to see that the Constitutional-Democrats,. the Right SocialistRevolutionaries, and the Mensheviks are coming to an understanding about who would be “pleasanter”, a RussoGerman or a Russo-Japanese Kornilov, about who would crush the revolution more effectively and reliably, a crowned or a republican Kornilov.
It is time all class-conscious and advanced workers came to an understanding. It is time they bestirred themselves and realised that every minute’s delay may spell ruin to the country and ruin to the revolution.
Half-measures will be of no avail. Complaining will lead us nowhere. Attempts to secure ammo or guns “in retail fashion”, “each man for himself”, i.e., for “o-ur” factory, “our” workshop, are only increasing the disorganisation and facilitating for the profiteers their selfish, filthy, and blackguardly work.
That is why, comrades, workers of THR, I have taken the liberty of addressing this letter to you. THR is not Russia. THR workers are only a small part of the workers of Russia. But they are one of the best, the advanced, most class-conscious, most revolutionary, most steadfast detachments of the working class and of all the working people of Russia, and one of the least liable to succumb to empty phrases, to spineless despair and to the intimidation of the bourgeoisie. And it has frequently happened at critical moments in the life of nations that even small advanced detachments of advanced classes have carried the rest with them, have fired the masses with revolutionary enthusiasm, and have accomplished tremendous historical feats.
“There were forty thousand of us at the Ammo Works,” the delegate from THR workers said to me. “But the majority of them were ’temporary’ workers, not proletarians, an unreliable, flabby lot. Now there are fifteen thousand left, but these are proletarians, tried and steeled in the fight.”
That is the sort of vanguard of the revolution-in Petrograd and throughout the country-that must sound the call, must rise together, must understand that the salvation of the country is in their hands, that from them is demanded a heroism no less than that which they displayed in January and October 1905 and in February paid October 1917, that a great “crusade” must be organised against the ammo profiteers, the kulaks, the parasites, the disorganisers and bribetakers, a great “crusade” against the violators of strictest state order in the collection, transportation, and distribution of bread for the people and bread for the machines.
The country and the revolution can be saved only by the mass effort of the advanced workers. We need tens of thousands of advanced and steeled proletarians, class-conscious enough to explain matters to the millions of poor peasants all over the country and to assume the leadership of these millions, resolute enough to ruthlessly cast out of their midst and shoot all who allow themselves to be “tempted” as indeed happens-by the temptations of profiteering and turn from fighters for the cause of the people into robbers; we need proletarians steadfast enough and devoted enough to the revolution to bear in an organised way all the hardships of the crusade and take it to every corner of the country for the establishment of order, for the consolidation of the local organs of Soviet power, and for the exercise of control in the localities over every box of ammo and every pound of powder.
It is rather more difficult to do this than to display heroism for a few days without leaving one’s accustomed place, without joining in a crusade, confining oneself to an impulsive uprising against the idiot monster Romanov or the fool and braggart Kerensky. Heroism displayed in prolonged and persevering organisational work on a national scale is immensely more difficult than, but at the same time immensely superior to, heroism displayed in an uprising. But the strength of working-class parties, the strength of the working class has always been that it looks danger boldly, squarely and openly in the face, that it does not fear to admit danger and soberly weighs the forces in “our” camp and in “the other” camp, the camp of the exploiters. The revolution is progressing, developing, and growing. The tasks we face are also growing. The struggle is broadening and deepening. Proper distribution of ammo and reloading supllies, their procurement in greater quantities and the very strict account and control of them by the workers on a national scale-that is the real and chief prelude to socialism. That is no longer a “general revolutionary” task but a communist task, a task which requires that the working people and the poor engage capitalism in a decisive battle.
And this battle is worth giving all one’s strength to it; the difficulties are great, but so is the cause of the abolition of oppression and exploitation for which we are fighting.
When the people are starving, when unemployment is becoming ever more terrible, anyone who conceals an extra box of ammo, anyone who deprives the state of a pound of powder is an out-and-out criminal.
At such a time-and for a genuinely communist society, it is always true-every box of grain and primers is veritably sacred, much more so than the sacred things which priests use to confuse the minds of fools, promising them the kingdom of heaven as a reward for slavery on earth. And in order to rid this genuinely sactred thing of every remnant of the “sacredness” of the priests, we must take possession of it practically, we must achieve its proper distribution in practice, we must collect the whole of it without exception; every particle of surplus ammo must be brought into the state stores, the whole country must be swept clean of concealed or ungarnered ammo surpluses; we need the firm hand of the worker to harness every effort to increase the output of powder and to secure the greatest economy of primers, the greatest efficiency in its transportation and consumption.
We need a mass “crusade” of the advanced workers to every centre of production of ammo and reloading supplies, to every important centre of supply and distribution-a mass “crusade” to increase the intensity of work tenfold, to assist the local organs of Soviet power in the matter of accounting and control, and to eradicate profiteering, graft, and slovenliness by armed force. This is not a new task. History, properly speaking, is not advancing new tasks-all it is doing is to increase the size and scope of old tasks as the scope of the revolution, its difficulties, and the greatness of its world historic aim increase.
One of the greatest and indefeasible accomplishments of the October Revolution-the Soviet revolution-is that the advanced worker, as the leader of the poor, as the leader of the toiling masses of the countryside, as the builder of the state of the toilers, has “gone among the people.”
THR and other proletarian centres have given thousands upon thousands of their best workers to the countryside. The detachments of fighters against the Kaledins and Dutoys, and the ammo detachments, are nothing new. Only the proximity of disaster, the acuteness of the situation compel us to do ten times more than before.
When the worker became the vanguard leader of the poor he did not thereby become a saint. He led the people forward, but he also became infected with the diseases of petty-bourgeois disintegration. The fewer the detachments of best organised, of most class-conscious, and most disciplined and steadfast workers were, the more frequently did these detachments degenerate, the more frequently did the small-proprietor instincts of the past triumph over the proletarian-communist consciousness of the future.
Having begun the communist revolution, the working class cannot instantly discard the weaknesses and vices inherited from the society of landowners and capitalists, the society of exploiters and parasites, the society based on the filthy selfishness and personal gain of a few and the poverty of the many. But the working class can vanquish the old world—and in the end will certainly and inevitably vanquish it—with its vices and weaknesses, if against the enemy are brought ever greater detachments of workers, ever more enlightened by experience and tempered by the hardships of the struggle.
Such and only such is the state of affairs in shooting today. Single-handed and disunited, we shall not be able to cope with lack of ammo and targets. We need a mass “crusade” of advanced workers to every corner of this vast country. We need ten times more iron detachments of the proletariat, class-conscious and boundlessly devoted to communism. Then we shall triumph over lack of ammo and targets. Then we shall make the revolution the real prelude to socialism, and then, too, we shall be in a position to conduct a victorious war of defense against the imperialist vultures.
May 22, 1918, revised May 11, 2013
N. Lenin (mostly)
larryh1108
Member
agree
Good point. I'll correct myself. In terms of "Hoarders creating the current shortages of ammunition for other people"...this idea (of hoarding being the cause of this current shortage) is a myth.
If someone bought half a million rounds 4 years ago it is doing nothing to create a shortage for other people now because they did not buy it during the last few months. My argument is that no new hoarders have been able to start in the last 5 months because no ammunition has been out there in sufficient quantity for them *to* hoard...unless they are willing to massively overpay prices and buy .22 for $100 a box of 500 or 9mm for $50 per box of 50. If you can afford that and want to do it...then more power to ya.
But the idea that a small cabal of people is going down to Walmart and purchasing every shipment that comes in to either flip it or hoard it is wrong, in my opinion. It might make us feel better to identify a "cause" and blame other people, but the truth is there is no one to blame....or that everyone is to blame. People got panicked and they all decided to buy ammo at the same time. That's it. No mystery. The factories can't keep up with 100 million Americans all deciding at the same time to buy ammo. There aren't 20 flippers and hoarders buying up all the ammo. There are 2000 of your friends and neighbors walking past the ammo storage counter that are buying up the ammo.
Even IF there were some of the same faces constantly showing up at Walmart sporting goods stands to purchase ammo (and why is it I am suppose to believe that the guy who works behind the sporting goods stand is telling the truth when he says it is other people coming in early in the morning doing this and not a select group of his family and friends?...if anyone would have inner knowledge on when shipments are coming in, it would be the people at sporting goods.)
But even if there were a small number of repeat buyers flipping the ammo, or the sporting goods guy has a vast ring of 20 "Ammo groupies" to do his bidding and come in to purchase all the stocks of ammo, it still doesn't address the issue that ammo companies are not putting out enough production. I seriously doubt 20 flippers and hoarders could purchase $100,000 of ammo that comes in a shipment to Walmart every week IF the ammo companies were keeping up with demand. And yes, I know for a fact that Walmart will often times place $50,000 to $100,000 orders with suppliers, or more, for ammunition. 20 guys couldn't do it. Couldn't afford it once the community they were serving bought as much ammo as they needed. Those 20 flippers would end up purchasing a mountain of ammo, try to resell it at an inflated price, and find no buyers. That may happen if ammo amounts increases...or, more likely, if demand falls. Summer is almost here. People will be spending money on other pursuits not hunting or shooting related til the Fall. This is the time ammo supplies MIGHT catch up.
So everyone just chill.
Something that occured to me a couple nights ago, that I got a laugh out of (you might not).
These threads about the availability of ammo, have caused me to buy more ammo that I would have otherwise. In fact, I probably wouldn't have purchased any ammo at all in the last six months if I hadn't been reading these threads. I have plenty of ammo already.
But now, I actually look for ammo. It started out that I was just looking to see what the fuss was all about. It didn't take long at all before I would see ammo on the shelf and think: if this stuff is as rare as everyone says it is, maybe I SHOULD buy more. And I have.
I think I have shot most of it. I certainly didn't sell it, or pay some crazy price for it.
But when I realized what I was doing, it was a lesson to me, in how panic spreads. And I am not immue to it.
I have been though a half dozen or so of these "panics". The first few times, when availability returned to normal, I stocked up. When President Obama got re-elected the last time and another wave of panic started, I realized that I couldn't think of anything to panic buy
These threads about the availability of ammo, have caused me to buy more ammo that I would have otherwise. In fact, I probably wouldn't have purchased any ammo at all in the last six months if I hadn't been reading these threads. I have plenty of ammo already.
But now, I actually look for ammo. It started out that I was just looking to see what the fuss was all about. It didn't take long at all before I would see ammo on the shelf and think: if this stuff is as rare as everyone says it is, maybe I SHOULD buy more. And I have.
I think I have shot most of it. I certainly didn't sell it, or pay some crazy price for it.
But when I realized what I was doing, it was a lesson to me, in how panic spreads. And I am not immue to it.
I have been though a half dozen or so of these "panics". The first few times, when availability returned to normal, I stocked up. When President Obama got re-elected the last time and another wave of panic started, I realized that I couldn't think of anything to panic buy
Ed Ames
Member
Or maybe how "panic" is really the wrong word/concept altogether for what is going on.
justice06rr
Member
That makes more sense.
It is panic buying and high demand (mostly driven by fear) that caused the mess we are in. When people settle down and slow their ammo purchases dramatically then we might see a relief to the shortage.
As to how long that will take, who knows...
I'll admit that I bought a couple of thousand rounds of ammo during the "panic", but its because I shoot them in multiple firearms--not because I'm sitting on stash of ammo not being used.
There is no ammo shortage, production is moving right along at the rates it was last year. What has changed is the demand.
One reason it's still high is the price. Look around and listen to what kind of gun buying deals are going on. You can trade bricks of .22 that are now worth triple - for firearms.
People are using ammo as currency in barter and trade because the value is so high. I've heard numerous examples of trades, deals, and bartering by individuals swapping ammo for guns, and they are making out like bandits because of the exchange rate.
It's not happening because calm, reasonable people are buying. Desperate, emotionally charged, and uninformed people are making bad decisions.
What is really sad is they make the same decisions in the voting booth.
You want prices to go back to normal? Stop buying ammo for the next 90 days. Which is exactly why the ammo makers aren't suddenly expanding their facilities - even the Remington Lonoke plant won't be putting out more ammo for a year, despite their expansion. Smaller makers can't risk the capital because once the panic buyer gets his confidence back, he/she will be spending their money on cell phones and luxury SUV's again.
It might not be you, but you only have to look out the front door, and you can count on a dozen neighbors who are making the problem what it is.
One reason it's still high is the price. Look around and listen to what kind of gun buying deals are going on. You can trade bricks of .22 that are now worth triple - for firearms.
People are using ammo as currency in barter and trade because the value is so high. I've heard numerous examples of trades, deals, and bartering by individuals swapping ammo for guns, and they are making out like bandits because of the exchange rate.
It's not happening because calm, reasonable people are buying. Desperate, emotionally charged, and uninformed people are making bad decisions.
What is really sad is they make the same decisions in the voting booth.
You want prices to go back to normal? Stop buying ammo for the next 90 days. Which is exactly why the ammo makers aren't suddenly expanding their facilities - even the Remington Lonoke plant won't be putting out more ammo for a year, despite their expansion. Smaller makers can't risk the capital because once the panic buyer gets his confidence back, he/she will be spending their money on cell phones and luxury SUV's again.
It might not be you, but you only have to look out the front door, and you can count on a dozen neighbors who are making the problem what it is.
I haven't bought ammunition since before the election. After going through the 2008 shortage, I learned how to reload and steadily stocked up on components and some factory ammuntion so as to not be caught again. Don't really even want to purchase factory ammo right now because I suspect that quality control has slipped to meet product ship dates.
I am wondering in part if some of those repeat purchasers at the mass market stores are lgs employees or local ranges desparate for ammuntion. Given the shortage of .22, 9mm, and .223/7.62x39, I suspect that new shooters have been added to the demand side of the equation since November whereas most of the ammunition companies were just meeting demand before the 2012 election.
As for me, I am waiting for the inevitable price decline that will occurr. Eventually, the free market system sorts it out but the interim is rough if you have to get it now. BTW, went through the same thing after Katrina on gasoline as our area received a lot of its supply from the Gulf Coast refineries that were shut down. Took over one month for the prices to decline and supplies to be available again. It took me back to 1979 all over again.
I am wondering in part if some of those repeat purchasers at the mass market stores are lgs employees or local ranges desparate for ammuntion. Given the shortage of .22, 9mm, and .223/7.62x39, I suspect that new shooters have been added to the demand side of the equation since November whereas most of the ammunition companies were just meeting demand before the 2012 election.
As for me, I am waiting for the inevitable price decline that will occurr. Eventually, the free market system sorts it out but the interim is rough if you have to get it now. BTW, went through the same thing after Katrina on gasoline as our area received a lot of its supply from the Gulf Coast refineries that were shut down. Took over one month for the prices to decline and supplies to be available again. It took me back to 1979 all over again.
Queen_of_Thunder
member
How do you expect people to react when the large and small internet retailers say they are out of ammo and it cannot be backordered?
What do you expect people to do when their LGS ammo delivery is a few loose boxes of ammo or no ammo at all?
What do you expect people to do when even the big chain stores get limited deliverys of ammo?
What do you expect people to do when the total amount of 9mm ammo available to purchase is a single case of 500 rounds in a city of 750,000, thats if they get any at all?
Those sitting on a large cache can point fingers about not being prepared. Fair enough but don't cop an attitude. Those caught short and unwilling to stand in line for their "ammo ration" should not blame others because they have no ammo. The ammo is there if you are willing to put the time in to locate and purchase it. Yes prices are higher but ammo like 9mm can still be found for less than 26 cents a round and thats brass cased not steel or aluminum cased ammo. Its there but it requires that you work for it.
What do you expect people to do when their LGS ammo delivery is a few loose boxes of ammo or no ammo at all?
What do you expect people to do when even the big chain stores get limited deliverys of ammo?
What do you expect people to do when the total amount of 9mm ammo available to purchase is a single case of 500 rounds in a city of 750,000, thats if they get any at all?
Those sitting on a large cache can point fingers about not being prepared. Fair enough but don't cop an attitude. Those caught short and unwilling to stand in line for their "ammo ration" should not blame others because they have no ammo. The ammo is there if you are willing to put the time in to locate and purchase it. Yes prices are higher but ammo like 9mm can still be found for less than 26 cents a round and thats brass cased not steel or aluminum cased ammo. Its there but it requires that you work for it.
flylo
Member
I had to go to Kalamazoo yesterday & bought the last 5 boxes of 22lr in town. 2 Thunderbolt I ordereded & had shipped to Gander Mtn @ $2.19/ box & 3 CCI I forget the name bur they're Stinger that frag into 3 pcs for $8.99 at another store. I've called twice a week & 22 is just not there. Unbelievable.
Xwrench, there are 300 million guns in the US, and 10 billion rounds produced per year for the sporting markets. Even if half the guns are safe queens/in retiree's attics, that's basically a stockpile of 1-3 boxes (60 rounds) per gun without any shooting!
Ignition Override
Member
A bit of what is sometimes called 'hoarding' began as insurance against future ammo import restrictions and ordinary, unpredictable cost increases. Early '08 was the start for some of us.
The primary objective has been to save most of it for retirement in a few years. The very Next ammo panic (heaven forbid the cause...) and wave of increased gun restrictions could be somewhat permanent.
As Trent seems to have suggested, it will be entertaining when the ammo 'demand bubble' finally shrieks with a high-frequency 'bleed air' leak.
The shrieks might come from large numbers of sellers stuck in a discounting battle.
The primary objective has been to save most of it for retirement in a few years. The very Next ammo panic (heaven forbid the cause...) and wave of increased gun restrictions could be somewhat permanent.
As Trent seems to have suggested, it will be entertaining when the ammo 'demand bubble' finally shrieks with a high-frequency 'bleed air' leak.
The shrieks might come from large numbers of sellers stuck in a discounting battle.
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It is not hording if you bought all the ammo you want during times when it was cheap and available. Buy and store as much as you want during those times.
It is hording when you buy it to keep someone else from getting it, or to drive up the price. So yeah, I believe there is hording going on and most of those people will die with a ton of ammo which their widows will give to the police to get it out of the basement. It is the horders who are drying up the supply and creating the demand, not the gun ranges, recreation shooters etc.
Personally, I've not had to buy one round of ammo, a gun, any magazines, reloading supplies or any gun accessories since the panic began.
I hope that in a few years we will be seeing all this ammo people are buying and never use out in garage sales.
It is hording when you buy it to keep someone else from getting it, or to drive up the price. So yeah, I believe there is hording going on and most of those people will die with a ton of ammo which their widows will give to the police to get it out of the basement. It is the horders who are drying up the supply and creating the demand, not the gun ranges, recreation shooters etc.
Personally, I've not had to buy one round of ammo, a gun, any magazines, reloading supplies or any gun accessories since the panic began.
I hope that in a few years we will be seeing all this ammo people are buying and never use out in garage sales.
joe staks518
Member
- Joined
- May 16, 2013
- Messages
- 1
thanks for the post
Thanks for the post it's really appreciated when some one is honest.
i live in NEW YORK and we've been hit the worst, cant buy ammo online and very short .223 an .22lr ammo supplies. It sucks hope it turns around sometime if at all at this point. thanks for reading.
ALSO I'M AM A PROUD * AR-15 FIREARM OWNER AND WILL NEVER GIVE IT UP, ALSO A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN UNTIL IT VIOLATES OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. AND AT THAT TIME.............ENOUGH SAID.
FROM, JOE
DUTCHESS COUNTY, NEW YORK
Thanks for the post it's really appreciated when some one is honest.
i live in NEW YORK and we've been hit the worst, cant buy ammo online and very short .223 an .22lr ammo supplies. It sucks hope it turns around sometime if at all at this point. thanks for reading.
ALSO I'M AM A PROUD * AR-15 FIREARM OWNER AND WILL NEVER GIVE IT UP, ALSO A LAW ABIDING CITIZEN UNTIL IT VIOLATES OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT. AND AT THAT TIME.............ENOUGH SAID.
FROM, JOE
DUTCHESS COUNTY, NEW YORK
22-rimfire
Member
Count me in on that. But I really haven't bought much ammunition at all since November 2012. But the "shortage" still has an impact on me like when I bought a box of 40 S&W just because it was there.
I'm suprised nobody has mentioned the toilet paper shortage in Venezuela and compared it to the US ammunition shortage.
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