Extreme Close Quarters Course....pics

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Rob Pincus

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NOTE TO THR MEMBERS: This thread was moved from a back channel conversation to this forum with local moderator's permission. We thought you guys might like to see what we are doing at Valhalla. I look forward to feedback/observations

From the course I ran last week.... FINALLY, I am able to do realistic and effective training for shooting while in a groundfight situation:
 

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Rob,
That looks interesting...details? Or will we read about it in SWAT? Have a new chief now and he thinks like I do about training. Maybe can get the city to finance a visit. Do you conduct a train the trainer course?

Jeff
 
Jeff,

Brent Wheat was at the course and will be writing it up for SWAT. This was the first ECQS course, so I haven't even thought about a "train the trainer" version. My first reaction is that I've been wanting to do this stuff at 90%+ speed for years and finally have the right combination of gear and students to do it... the lack of the former would impede any outside instructor's ability to run the drills at the same level.

I am using High Gear impact reduction suits (to allow almost unimpeded mobility while offering good protection from injury and AirMunition's sim rounds. The AirMunition is about 30-40% less powerful than Simunition and they do not have a restriction against civilian training, so it works great for me at Valhalla (close ranges and lots of civilians). These drills could be conducted with Airsoft, but in my experience, training at this level with those guns breaks them pretty quickly. Also, the realistic environment makes the training that much more valuable... you could do this in a gym or on the dirt, but in a carpeted living room w/ furniture or inside of a car is much more effective.

The course included shooting while in a ground fight, inside of a vehicle and on a third party while in a variety of contact situations with a primary subject (cuffing, medical attention, non-lethal CQB, etc), all with roleplayer & AirMunition. The live fire drills included shooting inside of and out of a car, most of the above drills and engaging the primary subject during non-lethal contact that escalates (cuffing, interview situations, etc...).

Catch me on the phone sometime, Jeff, I'd love to get you out here.
 
That whole "Most Progressive Reality Based Training Center on The Planet" thing is not meant to be just marketing.....:cool:

Here's another pic, firearm to response to a lethal attack from the rear, unorthodox target area:
 

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Lethal response on 3rd party lethal threat while cuffing (for civilian students it was "while administering CPR"):
 

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Pretty wild stuff. Lots of people talk about being either the most innovative or the guardians of ancient lost knowledge, but it looks like you're doing it. You must be having some kind of fun!

In the reaction to the rear choke, is the leg that unorthodox a target? Not having studied the matter, it looks like the only logical choice to me. I wouldn't want to try to hit the head or body, 'cause those would be very close to my head and body. I suppose if you were facing a really crazy berserker, being shot in the leg wouldn't stop him, but if you could disable the leg it would still have to change your position for the better.
I only recently took some training in knife technique, and it was emphasized there that, with the knife at least, the above is a good reason to attack the legs and possibly lower-side torso but not, as taught in some arts, to slash at the arms, neck or face of the attacker.
If the leg is unorthodox, what would most people train for? Surely not shooting past their own heads, so maybe torso? Your way looks obvious to the untrained eye, anyway, which is probably good.

In the "cuffing/CPR" scenario, why is the gun gangsta style? Is that something you teach specifically in that situation for some reason, or just the way that student shoots?


Do you ever run an "Undead Zombies Climbing Through the Windows" scenario in that living room? We're buddies, dude, you can tell me the truth. :D
 
1. Sorry, no undead zombies... but we do have a crazy nightclub with a severed arm hanging on a chain from the ceiling...

2. Many people shoot with a canted gun when they shoot one-handed. I leave the degree of cant up to the individual. What you might be seeing there is a mid-action shot. For presentation to the right, I teach to orient the muzzle towards the target as soon as the gun clears leather.. that puts the gun more or less horizontal, sometime between that moment and the shot, the gun is rotated into a more traditional shooting position... exactly where that happens during the extension is up to the shooter... especially if the shots are hitting the indicated target.

3. As for the leg... of course it makes sense in that scenario. But if you ask a class full of students where they should aim the gun in order to stop an determined lethal threat, you're not going to get "the leg" very often. I use a variety of scenarios under the heading of "unorthodox target areas" that put students in situations which they rarely see or can't be done on the square range that make areas other than the head or chest seem like the obvious choice. Still, you would be surprised how many times during retention drills or "fight for life" scenarios at the academy students try to get their gun out and shoot for the head or cover themselves going for the body during just such a rear choke, stab or gun grab attack. This is a perfect example of what Blauer calls "uncommon sense" it only makes sense after its been presented in context or shown.
 
The leg shot...
Makes a lot of sense. In most any martial arts class... they teach you to go for the leg like that with either you foot or a folding knife. Makes perfect sense to blast a hole if you can.
 
Unorthodox in the sense that most people who train to use guns don't train for situations which deny them the "orthodox" body and head targets, then. That makes sense.

I do realize it only looks obvious to me because you showed it to me, of course. I don't know nothin' bout no gun fighting.
 
We use to practice shooting from the ground (to simulate a disabling injury) but never did we cant the gun when we fired (unless we were laying on the side). BTW, if I had the leg like in the first photo and the suspect wasn't armed, I'd drag him by that leg (one arm could be disengaged to "chop" the shin if the dragged person attempted to kick).
 
Makes us cops mighty nervous to talk about instant-response using deadly force against a threat behind us, whom we haven't identified.

But if you can positively identify the threat as an on-going deadly-force threat that is about to kill you, I guess it's "Game On." Just gives me the heebie-jeebies to shoot at a target I'm not looking at. Make certain it's not some silly person playing a silly game of "gotcha!"

I had a certain law enforcement officer from another agency come up behind me at a breakfast buffet one Sunday morning while I was enjoying Mother's day with my wife and Father (whose birthday happens to often fall on M Day), and grab my right pocket like he was reaching into it. As this was a buffet where people are constantly walking along behind you, it wasn't until his hand was right on the cuff of my pocket that I realized something was wrong. I just reached down and grabbed the wrist, hard, and swiveled to face my "aggressor." And initially, I didn't see the cop-- I saw "some guy." Hey, it's sometimes all about context. I'd NEVER seen this cop out of uniform, and wasn't thinking criminal justice matters, I was thinking "that bacon over there looks really good. I wonder if they'll slice me some ham extra think?" He had a grin on his face, and then quickly said his name when he saw my face. He didn't realize that I had a pistol in the very pocket he had reached for! We smiled and chatted for a minute, but not before I said plainly, "Please don't do that again."

[shudder]
 
Matt,

Note the knife in that picture sorta being driven in the upper chestal region.... we were not simulating a game of grab-ass... ;)... that photo was probably 30-60 seconds into the run.
 
OK, just got some feedback from Brent. He asked me if it would be inappropriate for him to kiss his editor on the lips for giving him the assignment to cover Valhalla. I think he got a lot out of it and had a good time.

And for the record before any asks, I told he him he would be fired at the slightest hint of a pucker.

Denny
 
It's funny, but it's always the cops who are the most hesitant and the most likely to question unusual targeting with a pistol. In a class we did in Memphis, we set up the scenario pretty unambigously. The grabee was actually a plainclothes body detailed to a counterdrug taskforce. He was grabbed in a rear bearhug and the grabber yelled to his associates, "Get him. He's a f***ing narc". Three aggressors present plus the grabber. And in the debrief, a debate ensued over whether shooting the grabber in the leg was justified!!! I've never had as hard a time getting the neccesity of unusual targeting over to an audience of private citizens.

Rob, it looks like ya'll are doing some topnotch work. I need to start working some schedule magic and figure out how to get to Colorado.:)
 
Paul,

Love to have you out here sometime. The catchphrase on our ad was not a Goal, it is a mission statement!
IME, Law Enforcement Officers are faced with what Blauer call's "Fight 3"on a daily basis. Fight 1 is You vs. You: Give your self permission and ability to fight and then recognize that you need to. Fight 2 is The traditional "fight"... You vs. Your opponent. Fight 3 is the Aftermath: The Moral, Administrative, Civil and Criminal ramifications of your actions during Fight 2. Cops generally think about this a lot more than private citizens do, which explains the concern about anything "unorthodox":
"Would another reasonable officer do this?"
"Will the department back me up on this?"
Etc.
Etc.
 
That's some good stuff you've got going on there Rob.

You might be interested in this place. These guys do similar work and I'm sure would welcome your input.

For myself, I've done a good bit of this stuff, tho not quite as hard since our protection isn't as extensive, and it's awesome. Deployment of a weapon in the mix is such a huge issue and so many defensive shooters out there haven't even touched this skillset.
 
Hey, can you post a bigger picture? Maybe you can put in a warning or something for those on dial-up or RDP.

GT
 
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