For those who will go no lower than 9mm...

improperlyaged said:

Then carry a rifle. Handguns are notorious for failing to stop attackers even with multiple hits. As to that rifles are also poor choices because there are times when they even fail to stop an attack.

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I have a hard time fitting rifles in my pocket

[QUOTEthey used the smallest ones available at the time because they had no other choice][/QUOTE]

No doubt true. It is also true that whatever pistol was used "back in the day", hollowpoint ammo was not part of the equation. I still believe that limited to FMJ, the .380 held an entirely different niche than today when we tend to think in terms of JHP ammo. It was the advent of both high capacity pistols and the development of hollow points that fueled the surge in 9mm popularity.

Both .380 fmj and 9mm fmj punch a .355 caliber hole, generally through and through. The .380 has a lot less "punch" left after doing so, and maybe won't punch through at all. The 9mm is an entirely different story in fmj, dandy on the battlefield, not so much in a crowded apartment building. Also, most .380s in the mid twentieth century had barrels of between 3.35 and 3.8 inches, from .6 to a full inch longer than the typical pocket .380 of today and generating considerably more velocity and power as a result.

Because when hickok45 shot the five metal plates with a .380 they barely moved

Because when hickok45 shot the five metal plates with a .380 they barely moved

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I shoot 9mm light loads in various competitions.
I have twice seen 380s (bug guns) hit steel poppers that are easily knocked over , fail to fall with 380 commercial ammo.

OK, I know this isn't any kind of proof they won't be effective for S.D.; but it IS visible evidence of the significant difference between full power 380 performance and even light load 9mm. It does not instill confidence in 380 no matter what the charts/tests show. Add to that a limited selection of expensive ammo and no significant gain by choosing 380, why decide to use it?

Because when hickok45 shot the five metal plates with a .380 they barely moved

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and back in 1981 I watched a mad man drop 4 people with the crappiest 22lr revolver ever made.. What does that tell you?
Absolutely nothing...

jim243 said:

I don't think there is any one single answer to the question.

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Sure there is ... it all comes down to personal choice. Buy what you want. Use what you want. Believe what you want. At the end of the day it's all just personal opinion, personal choice and personal preference.

I personally prefer my barbeque dry rub, my whiskey mellow, my peanut butter crunchy and my hamburgers without cheese to name a few of the more important personal choices. I think I'll just keep it that way, hold fast to my versions of the truth and move on down my path.

People drive antique cars, and classic cars, because they like them. It's similar to guns. They may not be as powerful or efficient, but they will still get you form point A to point B. same with electronics, I figure they improved on the old model and upgrading anything is usually better. Some things are just things you love so you keep them, better or not.
As long as you understand why we use what we use, it's still your decision, if they would have had 15 round automatics in the Old West, I assume they would have used them.

I agree with gym and ku4hx. Why I carry what I carry is based in part upon a personal attachment or value that I place upon a specific gun and I can see why nostalgia, sentiment, and familiarity might play a part in the selection process for others.

Of course, none of that matters not one whit when it comes time to defend one's life and loved ones- it's how one composes oneself and what is hit that really matters. Until that time, I like to revel in the memories that carrying a certain gun brings with it.

I personally prefer my barbeque dry rub, my whiskey mellow, my peanut butter crunchy and my hamburgers without cheese to name a few of the more important personal choices. I think I'll just keep it that way, hold fast to my versions of the truth and move on down my path.

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By George, I think the man has it! +1

YMMV

Reasons for my choice of 9MM:
price - for some of us the price difference on a 50 count box (ok sorry, really mean 500 count bulk box) allows us to shoot more.
stopping power - sufficient
everyday availability - well until recently

Minor reason:
apocalypse availability - carry what LEO and military carry so ammo could be acquired with the "right" connections.

Because you have to draw the line somewhere and 38special doesn't work well in autoloaders.

I've carried a small .380 in a pair of cargo shorts, just because it was the lightest, and smallest firearm I've owned, out here when the temperatures get over 110 degrees in the summer time.

Of course I've carried an XD-40, as well as a .45acp in formal attire, or when the temperatures dictate wearing a jacket.

I do have a small 9mm on order that should be here any time soon, but I doubt it is any lighter than that little .380 with 7+1.

I use 9mm because I dislike the recoil impulse of .40S&W (else I'd carry a G23), and I dislike the lower capacity of the G30SF.

9mm does everything I want it to do, and lacks everything I want it to (like cost and bulk). Its the perfect handgun round. Even if .380 is "good enough for defensive use," I have no reason to downgrade - even ever so slightly.

It is not just about penetration. It is also about permanent and temporary wound cavities where all the energy of the round is released. A .380 is transferring roughly half the energy of the 9, and it is going to result in far less incapacitating damage. Once you get over 400 or so ft lbs being transferred to your target, then you find that there is not much deference between the 9mm and the .45 ACP. The .380 is not close, carrying 180 - 200 ft lbs, even less from the short barrels it often finds itself chambered in. Ditto the .38 Spcl.

9mm mm is my EDC, but I do toss a .380 or .38 snub in my pocket when I cannot belt carry. If I had a pocket 9, that would be a far better choice.

Energy transfer is a myth. A 357magnum placed poorly is less effective than a 22lr that hits the central nervous system.

jimbo555 said:

Energy transfer is a myth. A 357magnum placed poorly is less effective than a 22lr that hits the central nervous system.

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Is this a joke or what? I would say I respectfully disagree, but that would imply that I could be wrong, because this is a matter of opinion. Instead, it's a matter of basic physics, and you are wrong.

Drop a standard BB on your bare foot. Then drop a bowling ball on the other. You will feel two impacts, but only one will be painful. The pain is your body's interpretation of the transfer of energy from the ball (or BB) to your bare foot. Both objects fell at the exact same rate, but one transferred far more energy - the result of a bowling ball's greater mass.

While your comment regarding shot placement is true, it's also completely irrelevant to this topic.

Energy transfer is a myth. A 357magnum placed poorly is less effective than a 22lr that hits the central nervous system.

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We are not discussing shot placement. When shot placement is the same, I want a round that delivers more energy to the target. If that is a myth, then we should all be armed with .22LR solids.

Drop a 380acp bullet and a 9x19 bullet on your foot which one hurts? Hitting arteries the heart,central nervous system cause people to die fast nothing else. Explain the officer Coates incident.The officer hits the suspect with 3 357 rounds in the torso,suspect is able to return fire killing the officer with a 22lr bullet that hits a main artery. Suspect lives, officer Coates tragically did not. When I carry a 380 it's a Beretta 84b which gives me 14 chances to hit something vital.

Going back to concerns of over-penetration... despite my excessive research I've not been able to uncover a single instance of LE or citizen shooting through a bad guy and killing or seriously injuring a bystander behind with a handgun round. All the instances of collateral injury that I've read were impacts from missed shots, not over-penetrating hits.

The fact is that most handgun rounds are simply not traveling at lethal velocities after passing through a body or a limb. You might find exceptions with hot-loaded hard-cast .44 magnum loads or something like that, but speaking for most bullets at most velocities, including FMJ rounds.

Over-penetrating your target in a self defense scenario should not be a serious concern in caliber/bullet selection.

Drop a 380acp bullet and a 9x19 bullet on your foot which one hurts? Hitting arteries the heart,central nervous system cause people to die fast nothing else. Explain the officer Coates incident.The officer hits the suspect with 3 357 rounds in the torso,suspect is able to return fire killing the officer with a 22lr bullet that hits a main artery. Suspect lives, officer Coates tragically did not. When I carry a 380 it's a Beretta 84b which gives me 14 chances to hit something vital.

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So your point is that a load with half the energy is equally effective? That's just silly. You are still going with a shot placement argument, and that is not what is being discussed here. Obviously shot placement is vital. A miss conveys zero energy to the target.

Defensive ballistic science is far more involved than simply poking a hole into a vital organ. Energy transferred is a huge part of the equation. I can poke holes in deer vitals all day long with a .22 LR, and they will likely succumb eventually. I may even find them after a few hours work. I hit them in the exact same spot with a .223 shooting the same weight bullet, and they will likely drop like a stone.

What is being discussed is whether a 380acp can be as effective as a 9x19,not 223 rifles or bowling balls. Placement and penetration are most important,nothing else matters. All things being equal the 9x19 should be more effective than the 380acp. But real world examples show that strange things happen when bullets hit. No handgun bullet is going to knock you down and stop you instantly with kinetic energy alone. There are plenty of examples of officers hit in soft body armor by magnums with little effect.

Placement and penetration are most important,nothing else matters

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That is simply false. A 90 grain 9mm grizzly load at 1600fps carries over 500 ft lbs of energy. A 90 gr .380 load at 940 fps carries 188. The crush cavity, tissue damage, wound channel diferences are dramatic, and to say that none of that matters is frankly ridiculous. I am moving on to more open minded conversation at this point.

Look at real shootings ,not numbers and you will see little difference in caliber effectiveness with handguns used in self defense.

I like 9mm as it has been around for over 100 years. I have enjoyed the wide variety of pistols that have been made for that particular round, antique, classic and modern. Shot placement in self defense is the most important thing. If you can shoot a 22 in the expert category buy can't handle the 45's comfortably you are better off with the 22. Sometimes the little 22 can produce horrific wound channels. A shot in the arm can have the projectile end up in the heart or lungs. For self defense I think the most powerful round you can handle accurately is the best.

Quote:

Placement and penetration are most important,nothing else matters

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That is simply false. A 90 grain 9mm grizzly load at 1600fps carries over 500 ft lbs of energy. A 90 gr .380 load at 940 fps carries 188. The crush cavity, tissue damage, wound channel diferences are dramatic, and to say that none of that matters is frankly ridiculous. I am moving on to more open minded conversation at this point.

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There are only two kinds of "stops": Physiological and psychological.
W/a physiological stop, the bg ceases the attack because he is physically unable to continue. Barring a hit to the CNS, you have to shut the brain down via oxygen deprivation from blood loss.

The big problem when comparing terminal effectiveness between calibers/loads is determining how much difference there is in the bleedout rate until incapacitation. Seconds? Minutes? Hours? Enough to alter the outcome of the encounter?
Given the same determined bg and identical hits, how much difference would we see in the bleedout rates between your 90gr 9mm "grizzly" load and the 90gr .380 load? Enough to alter the outcome of the encounter?

Shot placement and sufficient penetration are paramount, all else is secondary.
Tomac