Is the Semi-Auto EBR overated?

Just about anything is better than a Bushy- except HiPoint and Olympic

The pump is better for what? If you mean self defense, take it to a carbine class and see how it does. When you do, let us know

I don't understand what you mean by "better". Maybe for the laws in your state? To each his own, if you like it that's all that matters.

It looks like a Rem. 870 and a Mossberg MVP had an illegitimate baby. It kind of trades all the advantages the AR-15 pattern offers for a very short sight radius and awkward magazine release plus more work to cycle the action manually.

A fun gun? Sure, but I think it is a far cry from an AR pattern. Apples to oranges I guess. Or an orange trying to be an apple?

Is the semi-auto EBR over rated?

In my opinion, yes.

I see that lots of folks seem to look at the EBR as some kind of big, bad, super dooper gun.

This opinion is on both sides of the gun control argument. The Gunnies want it because it's the best gun there is, and the anti-gunnies want to ban it because it's the worst gun there is.

Me?

Well, I own one, and have fired quite a few others... and I feel like I have a pretty good grip on what it is and isn't.

I also think I have a fair idea of what it can and cannot do.

And armed with that knoweledge I have compared the EBR with other guns of all types.

As far as I'm concerned, It's just another gun.

It's not the most powerful, not the most acurate, doesn't have the most range, Isn't the most deadly, and doesn't offer any special features.

Sure, The EBR has it's good points. The adjustability and light weight make it suitable for use by just about any sized adult. It's mild recoil makes it easy to shoot and train with. It offers good enough accuracy to do just about anything you might want to with it.

But it's not a super dooper killing machine by any stretch of the imagination.

I think things would be a lot less stressful if more people took the time to compare the EBR to the rest of the rifles in the world.

When the truth is known, the urge to ban them would probably whither on the vine.

Truth be told, there isnt really anything an AR cant do as well as a bolt gun nowadays. We have AR's that are just as accurate as a quality bolt rifle, reliability (given a quality rifle is purchased) is a non issue being able to fire upwards of 10,000rds without malfunction and pricing is now almost on par with a decent bolt setup too. There really are few, if any distinct disadvantages to a semi auto rifle when compared to any other action type in the same calibers. About the only real downside to the AR is that it can freeze up. Hence the reason we see militaries around the globe in northern climates using AK's instead.

I am a die hard ar fan but I am the first to admit they weren't designed for a traditional scope.

Looks like the Remington is set up better for what you're doing. Get an AR set up like the Remington and check back.

adelbridge said:

I am a die hard ar fan but I am the first to admit they weren't designed for a traditional scope.

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Why is that? You can buy parts to make an AR be whatever you want.

truth be told, there isnt really anything an AR cant do as well as a bolt gun nowadays.

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Except if you want a light rifle that fires a non-intermediate cartridge. Until the AR-10 weighs the same as a Winchester 70 or a Remington 700, or any of the great Savages, there will always be a reason for a bolt.

Accuracy-wise, sure. Reliability, despite the nay-Sayers, sure almost all the time it will cycle.

But carry a rifle miles in the back country, up and down steep hillsides for a shot 300+ yards with a serious payload. An AR doesn't fit that bill.

Its a great gun. I own one. But it has its limitations. Use the the right tool for the job.

Except if you want a light rifle that fires a non-intermediate cartridge. Until the AR-10 weighs the same as a Winchester 70 or a Remington 700, or any of the great Savages, there will always be a reason for a bolt.

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Even the weight is almost the same as most bolt rifles. The S&W M&P10 weighs 7.7lbs, whereas a Winchester M70 Featherweight weighs 6.7lbs or a Remington 700 BDL weighs in at 7.3lbs. For .4-1 pound difference, you gain quite a lot of utility with the semi auto. That .4-1lb weight difference could easily be made up by using other, lighter gear (such as sights/scope, bino's, GPS, sandwich, heck even a new big cell phone).

If you compare it to a heavier barreled bolt gun, the .308 M&P will be lighter.

Jackal said:

Even the weight is almost the same as most bolt rifles. The S&W M&P10 weighs 7.7lbs, whereas a Winchester M70 Featherweight weighs 6.7lbs or a Remington 700 BDL weighs in at 7.3lbs. For .4-1 pound difference, you gain quite a lot of utility with the semi auto. That .4-1lb weight difference could easily be made up by using other, lighter gear (such as sights/scope, bino's, GPS, sandwich, heck even a new big cell phone).

If you compare it to a heavier barreled bolt gun, the .308 M&P will be lighter.

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But you're comparing the lightest AR 10 to a standard weight bolt. Try a Savage Lightweight Hunter, at 5.5 lbs, or a Tikka Lite at 6. 2.1 lbs is a sizable difference, and saying that you can make up the difference in other gear is disingenuous at best. After all, if you're that mountain hunter who's worried about ounces, wouldn't you already be using pretty light gear?

Is the Semi-Auto EBR overrated?

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No, I don't think so. I think it is the most ergonomic and adaptable rifle there is. If there is something about it that you don't care for you can just change it.
Is it everything to everyone? Well I guess every platform has its limitations. So for some it might not work but for me, it's all I need.

Just about*anything*is better than a Bushy- except HiPoint and Olympic

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Thank you. The elitist bull-crap is very helpful. I didn't know HiPoint made a AR.

Mat said:

But you're comparing the lightest AR 10 to a standard weight bolt. Try a Savage Lightweight Hunter, at 5.5 lbs, or a Tikka Lite at 6. 2.1 lbs is a sizable difference, and saying that you can make up the difference in other gear is disingenuous at best. After all, if you're that mountain hunter who's worried about ounces, wouldn't you already be using pretty light gear?

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And you're assuming you need a .308 to hunt. Most big game hunting in the US consists of deer and short range. AR15 compatible calibers will easily handle that. You can get low 6 lb ARs. And then "mountain hunting." Come on. Lets just include hunting cape buffalo in thick brush. You still want that 5.5 lb Savage?

I'm not a big advocate of ARs for hunting BTW, just trying to keep things fair around here. Obviously no gun is ideal for every imaginable scenario.

taliv said:

better at what?

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his Rem is cheaper accurate way easier to clean without employing a dental hygienist and if he thinks it is better he will do better with it a lot of this is mental. now he will not be able to saturate a target with lead as fast as an AR but how many times must you shoot something

Try shooting that pump from prone or any supported position and you'll understand why the semi is better. Even a bolt rifle is faster in those positions.

If you are talking self defense then a good AR is much better than your pump for follow up shots.

Take three IDPA/IPSC targets and set them up at 10 yards with about 10 feet between them. Time yourself shooting all three with at least 2 rounds on each. The AR is going to be much much faster than your pump.

By the way I am a fan of the 7615. I've never owned one but I do like the concept and everything I've read says they are reliable.

Same Caliber...

So why would you think it's any better unless you're worried about what someone is gonna say or do because you have an AR? Not a .308 so what's the difference!?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=722197

bushmaster1313 said:

As a reliable self defense weapon
Premium on reliability.
I also like the pump because:
(1) It does not load the next round until I am ready.
(2) I find the charging handle of the XM-15 ackward.

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1) not sure why loading the next round immediately is a problem. It won't fire until you squeeze the trigger.
Downside to the pump is that you may forget to load the next round (unlikely with practice, but possible)

2) fair enough, but it is only used once when initially loading the first round into the chamber. After that it loads itself and locks back on the last round so you don't have to use the charging often. What about an AR with a side charging handle? Left side charging handles are available as well if that is your preference.

Not trying to say that the pump isn't good. I think they are the next best thing to a semi auto and have considered the Rem 7615 when I found one used. Don't think the pump is any problem with prone. I've a guy shoot a Rifleman score with a pump at a Project Appleseed shoot. Your hands never move from their firing position so it is quite quick to operate.

Lots of guys out there who aren't fans of "EBR's". I personally find the pistol grip and flat stock more ergonomic than a traditional stock so I like them, but to each his own. If it's accurate and you shoot it well, enjoy!

"Over-rated" may be a stretch, but I would agree with the idea the AR-platform is not a be-all/end-all solution to every rifle use.

The biggest one in my mind being hunting. Yes, there are calibers and options that work for medium game, but they may not be as ideal as cartridges you can fire from a lightweight bolt gun. Years ago I had a neat little Remington 700 Mountain Rifle in .260 Remington. It provided much more horsepower than anything you can cram in a -15 chassis and is much lighter than a -10 chassis. (With a longer barrel than you'll find on a lighter -10.)

Next would be long-range and some match shooting applications. Don't get me wrong, I love my match-ready AR-15 Service rifle (see my signature line). But as much as I like it, if I were building a dedicated prone rifle for mid-to-long range, I want better ballistics in something that doesn't throw brass into the weeds. Give me a 6mm, single-shot bolt gun please.

As for shooting a pump, I agree with the others who say try shooting it prone. A semi-auto is superior there, followed by a bolt gun, then a lever, then a pump.

I sure as heck don't want a small capacity pump action for defense when I can have a completely reliable standard capacity semi auto.

bushmaster1313 said:

As a reliable self defense weapon
Premium on reliability.
I also like the pump because:
(1) It does not load the next round until I am ready.
(2) I find the charging handle of the XM-15 ackward.

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And this is exactly why.

1) There exists the very real possibility of operator error...especially under life or death stress, on every single round fired. Not to mention that each of those rounds will be slower/take longer to fire than a semi.
2) Sounds like a training/practice/familiarity issue.


Out of curiosity, how many rounds do you have through that AR?

How many defensive courses or matches have you done with it?

I think the Remington pump has the same capacity as any AR.....takes the same mags, doesn't it?

hatt said:

And you're assuming you need a .308 to hunt. Most big game hunting in the US consists of deer and short range. AR15 compatible calibers will easily handle that. You can get low 6 lb ARs. And then "mountain hunting." Come on. Lets just include hunting cape buffalo in thick brush. You still want that 5.5 lb Savage?

I'm not a big advocate of ARs for hunting BTW, just trying to keep things fair around here. Obviously no gun is ideal for every imaginable scenario.

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Maybe you could read Idaho Skies comment, the one Jackal initially responded to, again. He was specifically talking about the AR platform's unsuitability for backcountry hunting. To then dismiss that as irrelevant, and then confuse the issue by waving Cape buffalo around is silly.

And since Cape buff have been brought up, no, of course you wouldn't want a super light mountain rifle for them. But you wouldn't want an AR, either. You would probably still want a bolt, just a bigger, heavier, meaner and nastier one.