Why didn't the APS priming system catch on?

I use aps to load precision rounds only.

All other loads get loaded on my two Dillon 1050s

Aps works great for my larger rounds like 30-30 to 300 win mag.

rockhopper46038 said:

Interestingly, during a conversation with a gentleman at RCBS I was told (with considerable indignation, I might add), that CCI primers in APS strips are not supposed to cost any more than CCI primers loose. He was quite upset when I told him they generally sell for a buck or so more per thousand.

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That was the original plan (and advertising) 10 years ago.....and it was true for the first 5 years or so.....how long ago did you have that conversation with the guy at RCBS? Curious. Was it at a shot show?

I wonder if the MSRP of the primers, tray vs APS, is the same but the distributers discount the trayed primers more.

I could not find an "official" CCI MSRP, not that I looked very long either.

You can safely store them.....thousands of them....ready to load. You gonna load and store tubes????? Bottom line is...once you have a large stash of primers preloaded even loading a try seems slow.......and nothing is safer.

Clumsy? I find it just the opposite. I used autoprimes for 20 years....you have to shake 'em to make sure you have a primer to load. I like the sure thing on my APS hand primer. No shell holder required either....clumsy?"

I find the process of popping the cover off my Lee's trays, dumping in the needed premers, quick shake to orient, replace the cover and start priming to be quite easy and fast. Pre-loading the strips ARE a part of the process so discounting that part doesn't make it go away. Whenever and however you charge thousands in your plastic strips with whatever caps you think you will use next, storing them, then getting them out of storage and installing the strip and then start priming seems like a clumsy process to me. I can't see how safety comes into play either way. ??

My old Lyman press mounted auto feed with brass primer tubes works very well, much smoother feeding than the chintzy RCBS alum auto feed tube things I got rid of. Can't imagine why anyone would need or want to pre-load dozens of tubes anyway, I don't reload if I'm under a stop watch. ??

I find very little shaking to be needed with my Lee APs if I hold them tilted back so gravity will do the feeding and even when a slight shake is needed it sure doesn't take a lot of time! My simple Lee's were so inexpensive that buying them wasn't a financial burden and didn't force mama to work it out in the food budget; the two Auto Primes and a full set of shell holders were way less than half of your costs and I can swap primer types and brands at a moments notice. The Lees do what I need very well!

I rarely need to change shell holders with either of mine and it doesn't take more than 15-20 seconds to swap them, even if I'm moving slow; that's not a burden.

Federal's primer compound isn't "too sensitive" but it is a bit more sensitive than others. That's to better ensure a "BANG!" rather than a "snap" when the pin strikes; works too! Other than that, Fed's caps are no better than others.

Understand that you love the strips and CCI primers. I'm glad for you but your needs are different from mine so that's cool. But it seems a LOT more people agree with me than you! Different strokes ...


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rockhopper46038 said:

Interestingly, during a conversation with a gentleman at RCBS I was told (with considerable indignation, I might add), that CCI primers in APS strips are not supposed to cost any more than CCI primers loose. He was quite upset when I told him they generally sell for a buck or so more per thousand.

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My guess is wholesalers and retailers charge more for being inconvenienced with having to stock them. And since its a proprietary system, they know that the people that want them will pay the extra dollar or two. After all, buying them preloaded on the strips for $2 more still saves money over buying primers and strips separately, and it saves the end user the time/trouble of having to load the strips themselves. I'd bet that even if the CCI APS primers were cheaper for the retailers than regular CCI primers, the retailers would still charge a little more.

Last night, I decided to drag out my APS stuff and hand prime some handgun cases. I wanted to remind myself on the APS hand priming process.

Recently, I have only been using the APS priming system on my Pro2000 as I have a boat load of tray packaged primers and the Pro2000 is only used for 300 BLK and 204 Ruger at present.

Filling strips with primers then hand priming is probably not any faster or slower than using a tray style priming tool.

But, if you use pre-filled APS strips, hand priming with APS would be quicker as there is not shaking the priming tool every few primers to make sure primers get to the seating station. Of course, you are limited to CCI primers and even then not all CCI primers are offered pre-loaded in strips (#41 and #34 primers are not pre-loaded).

ken70, If not for Federal primers I would be out of primers. Large box used by Federal, consider this, Lee said nothing kind to or about Federal primers, so Federal built the large primer box to upset Mr. Lee, meaning the large box for primers gave Mr. Lee something to complain about.Reloaders with Lee auto hand priming tools could not transfer the primers from the large tray to the small flip tray without spilling them. I cut a quarter section out of the large tray cover. I dumped 25 primers at a time. I was not aware reloaders with Lee hand priming equipment could not transfer the primers without spilling them.

Light a candle or ‘cuss’ the darkness.

I did not purchase Lee’s book on modern reloading, it was given to me by someone that did not want to read it, he knew I would. A short time after he gave me the book he called “QUESTION?” I answered him and then thanked him for the book..

F. Guffey

fguffey said:

R. Lee in his book on modern reloading discussed the RCBS auto strip priming system--deleted--. In the same book he discussed Federal primers, R. Lee did not test Federal primers because Federal did not donate primers to be tested.

In his book, R. Lee thought RCBS should share the patent with other reloading equipment manufactures, in the name of safety.

F. Guffey

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Yeah, Lee's all about safety. Who else will suggest you need and then sell you a blast shield for some of their presses other than Lee?

fguffey said:

ken70, If not for Federal primers I would be out of primers. Large box used by Federal, consider this, Lee said nothing kind to or about Federal primers, so Federal built the large primer box to upset Mr. Lee, meaning the large box for primers gave Mr. Lee something to complain about.Reloaders with Lee auto hand priming tools could not transfer the primers from the large tray to the small flip tray without spilling them. I cut a quarter section out of the large tray cover. I dumped 25 primers at a time. I was not aware reloaders with Lee hand priming equipment could not transfer the primers without spilling them.

Light a candle or ‘cuss’ the darkness.

I did not purchase Lee’s book on modern reloading, it was given to me by someone that did not want to read it, he knew I would. A short time after he gave me the book he called “QUESTION?” I answered him and then thanked him for the book..

F. Guffey

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Like I said, Lee advised not to use Federal primers in any of the priming systems he sells. Federal is the only company to use "basic" priming formula. They patented it in 1949, and it's their baby. Nobody else has those big trays, so they must be using the "normal" priming formula. It's a safety issue, plain and simple.


Lee has changed the priming tools; liability concerns is my guess. They won't sell any repair parts for the original Auto-Prime. The Auto-Prime II is off the market for the last 5 years??? The new tools separate the tray from the one being seated.

I have thousands of non-APS primers. Last night I loaded up 1000 primers into the APS strips in a little over 30 mins while watching TV. This is WAY faster than loading primer tubes.

Saving time by loading while watching TV is like saying you can get from OKC to Dallas in an hour if you don't start counting until you get to the Red River.

dickttx said:

Saving time by loading while watching TV is like saying you can get from OKC to Dallas in an hour if you don't start counting until you get to the Red River.

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It takes around two minutes to load four APS Strips. (100ct) Agreed it is more work than a LEE hand primer, but less work than an equal amount of primer tubes. Plus...no more hand cramps.

When set up with the Pro2000, it is rare for me to have primer issues.

I don't understand the hate toward RCBS or why someone would stoop so low as to insinuate any honest assessment as a lie.

I've been using APS strips since 2009 and just passed 90K rounds loaded. I'm very satisfied with APS system regardless of anyone's opinion.

warhwkbb,

There are several who I have put on my "ignore list", just so I don't have to read their inane drivel. It works for me. Might work for you, too.....

Hope this helps.

Fred

Quote:
"I don't understand the hate toward RCBS or why someone would stoop so low as to insinuate any honest assessment as a lie.

I've been using APS strips since 2009 and just passed 90K rounds loaded. I'm very satisfied with APS system regardless of anyone's opinion."

No hate for RCBS. Lots of admiration.
Just joshing about time. Time is time, whether you do it all at once or in several segments.

Everyone develops their own procedures and does what works best for them. Probably couldn't find anyone who load exactly like I do. That is one of the great things about the hobby. Hundreds of different ways, equipment, supplies, ect. to get to the same conclusion--a piece of lead that hits the target.

warhwkbb said:

It takes around two minutes to load four APS Strips. (100ct) Agreed it is more work than a LEE hand primer, but less work than an equal amount of primer tubes. Plus...no more hand cramps.

When set up with the Pro2000, it is rare for me to have primer issues.

I don't understand the hate toward RCBS or why someone would stoop so low as to insinuate any honest assessment as a lie.

I've been using APS strips since 2009 and just passed 90K rounds loaded. I'm very satisfied with APS system regardless of anyone's opinion.

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So is everyone else who uses them. It's like food....some people refuse to try new dishes even if their friends swear by it as great .... They're the ones missing out....don't worry about it. I used tubes for 10 years....bought a Lee hand primer and used it for another 30 years.

APS (and the Pro 2000) rejuvenated my hobby. It was a breath of fresh air after spending some time on a Dillon 650. Though the Dillon is a good press and it really is a whole level better than Lee's, and less trouble to get working right than the Hornady, it's still not nearly as simple & bullet proof as RCBS's press.........and you all will never know it's that good unless you try it "honestly." If you're happy with what you have and don't want change, super. Just don't tear us down falsely because we don't follow the herd.

I've cranked out ammo on all three....and I'm not a bit ashamed of my Pro 2000, "honestly."

"Lee said nothing kind to or about Federal primers, so Federal built the large primer box to upset Mr. Lee, meaning the large box for primers gave Mr. Lee something to complain about."

That's ludicrous.

Back to the O.P.'s original question...why didn't APS catch on? Second post was a right answer. Proprietary. Apple computer would have caught on many years before it did, if not for that mentality. If Richard Lee really said that they ought to share it.....he was right.

Another reason is RCBS's less than stellar marketing. RCBS as a company isn't perfect.....name one that is, but they could really do a better job of marketing. IMO, APS is a best kept secret that shouldn't be a secret. VERY FEW people who learn to use it go back to trays or tubes.

dickttx said:

Quote"
"There's two kinds of reloaders who don't like them.....those who never tried them, and those who tried them but didn't follow directions to use the system properly."

Pretty much true about any piece of reloading equipment I have ever used!

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Yeah, I was wondering who among the naysayers have actually ever touched an APS priming system.

To the OP's question... it has caught on.... with me. I love it. I suspect post #2 nailed why it hasn't caught on with other manufacturers yet.

"To the OP's question... it has caught on.... with me. I love it. I suspect post #2 nailed why it hasn't caught on with other manufacturers yet."

I suspect that, as a percentage of the new equipment market, it's caught on with as about many reloaders as it's going to catch on with and nothing will change when the patent protection expires, certainly not unless any competers lower the costs - a lot. Surely no one's not buying it now just because it's green and CCI.

higgite said:

I suspect post #2 nailed why it hasn't caught on with other manufacturers yet.

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Right but at least CCI/RCBS recognized that folks may want to use primers from other manufacturers and sell a strip charger and empty, reusable strips.

Admittedly, the APS system would not be easy to adapt to other currently available presses. Probably a total redesign of the press would be required.

Wow, all 3 RCBS progressive press owners in the same thread....be honest, green progressives are just not popular. Never have been. They've tried, but for some reason they only appeal to a very tiny minority.

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Haha! Just 3? There might be 6 on all the reloading forums.

I don't think it is any secret that RCBS makes some of the best reloading equipment, and has been doing so since forever.

The have lacked in the progressive arena for some reason, that is certain, as you say. They have not came up with winners like the Dillons(all winners), or the LnL AP.

Green machine, piggy back and I believe one other that was a dedicated progressive, all pretty much failed to catch on mostly because they were fussy as hell(read in the archives, there is very little boasting, mostly moaning about them in very few threads). Reloaders don't forget, I read here and at TFL and a couple other places like arfcom, the RCBS 2000 guys are very scarce.
It is going to take at least one more redesign before they catch up, I suspect. It has nothing to do with APS, they are flawed because almost everything that happens on the press is in the same place.

People that shoot competitively aren't going to build their own case feeding mechanisms nor mess with loading strips when they can load tubes at the bench faster than they can use them and the Dillon case feed system is excellent.

Folks that do a lot of comp shooting load up 3k rounds in a short afternoon on a 650 with almost no effort, comparatively. The RCBS is every bit as expensive as a 650 but significantly slower. That is the bottom line. When and if they build a better mouse trap they will sell like hot cakes.

GT1 said:

...they are flawed because almost everything that happens on the press is in the same place.

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Say what? The Pro2000 is a five station press just like the Hornady L-N-L and the Dillon 650. The Pro2000 does rotate counterclockwise though and stuff that happens near the front of the L-N-L happens near the rear of the Pro2000.

Not everyone is a competitor and needs case and bullet feeders. I use progressives primarily to reduce some case handling. Increase in productivity is a by-product.

The main problem with the Dillon 650 for me is the bullets get fed with one hand and the cases with the other. Totally screws up the flow for me and I am not interested in a case feeder--too much noise and I do not need the capacity.

I've modified my Dillon SDBs so that I can feed cases from the left size. Much improved operation for me.

I have a Hornady L-N-L, two Dillon SDBs and a RCBS Pro2000. Each has its advantages and disadvantages and these can be different depending on your use. In my reloading room, each progressive and two single stage presses have specific tasks that each is set up for and excels at.

I will not disagree that RCBS' previous attempts at progressive presses have not lived up to expectations but I find the Pro2000 as good as my L-N-L except in the area of easy die replacement. Storing die plates full of dies does not fit well with my die storage system, my limitation, not the Pro2000's. I specifically bought the Pro2000 because of the APS primer system and to load 300 BLK, 204 Ruger and 223 Remington. 308 Winchester and 30-06 may be in its future but I have not decided yet.

Drum roll please.....

Wow, all 3 RCBS progressive press owners in the same thread....be honest, green progressives are just not popular.

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I own one too, so that makes 4.

Three things going against the 2000Pro: it's expensive, there's no case feeder and it isn't blue.

GW Staar said:

That was the original plan (and advertising) 10 years ago.....and it was true for the first 5 years or so.....how long ago did you have that conversation with the guy at RCBS? Curious. Was it at a shot show?

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6 months ago, perhaps? The gentleman professed to be one of the original design engineers on the Pro2000 press development team and indicated that retailers were supposed to be contractually obligated to sell CCI primers in APS strips at the same cost as non strip CCI primers.