45-70 as "200 yard limit?" Uh,... ???

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coyote315

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I became interested in 45/70 recently both to shoot and reload, and I've noticed some hilarious internet trend of "yeah it's a great caliber but only to 200 yards." A lot of this is regarding deer and hogs...

Generally speaking, a lever-action load is still pushing a 400-grainish bullet pretty decent at 400 yards. I interpret the misnomer that it's a 200 yard cartridge to marketing not wanting to tell people that they're 200-yard marksmen, incapable of ethically judging distance and shooting accordingly. Certainly, that 400 grain bullet is going to do it's job even after slowing down and dropping 48" against mule deer and smaller, definitely whitetails and hogs! If you've become proficient enough to put the bullet where it needs to go, I'd think that bowling-ball bullet is definitely going to plant just about anything it hits, right?
 
I think most people consider a 48" drop (and dropping quickly) bullet to be outside of the bullet's capabilities. Off 10 yards one way or another and you are in trouble.
 
Accurately judging range and figuring your hold over is pretty difficult. A cartridge with a less than flat trajectory only makes it harder since even a small mistake in your calculations can cause a large difference in point of impact. The difference between 390 and 400 yards is over 6 inches.
 
You're right, it'll certainly kill something past 200 yards. There were some tests done at Sandy Hook in 1879 that determined it was still lethal for military purposes at over 3500 yards for volley fire. It was limited to 1000 yards for individual target engagement. That was with blackpowder loads too, not the supercharged Marlin and Ruger loads.

That said, it still has a very rainbow-like trajectory which makes accuracy in distance estimation dramatically more important than some of the flatter cartridges out there. The Hornady FTX is one of the flatter standard pressure loads out there, and the difference in drop between 200 and 300 yards is roughly two feet. For every 25 yards from 300 to 400 yards, it is dropping almost another foot. I personally can't judge distance well enough to ethically make that shot with that cartridge without some kind of laser.
 
At some distance the random factors start to add up. For instance, let's assume a 45-70 round leaves the barrel 35 fps slower (random variation) than what you used to zero -- that's a difference of 1.5" at 300 yards. It's much more extreme at longer distances. Also, with such low BC bullets the weather (atmospheric pressure and density) can really make a difference, as well as the slightest wind.

Try this:

1. Take your favorite ballistics calculator
2. Compare a 308 Winchester to a 45-70 at 300-400 yards
3. Plug in some different numbers for wind, temperature, velocity, etc...
4. Compare the spread in the drop/drift among the two calibers
 
200 yds is about as far as most rifles and their shooters can with certainty place a shot properly in hunting situations. Those that have taken the time and spent the ammunition to master the barrel mounted ladder sights or have the time to range a target and set the vernier tang sight can certainly place the first shot in the kill zone. This of course assumes the rifleman has the ability to dope the wind which can raise holy ned with these slow fat slugs at even close ranges like 200 yds.
Even when shooting the steel targets at 1000 yds, there's indication of ample energy to cleanly kill an animal, but at that distance making the first shot count gets really difficult, even on targets.
 
As far as hunting shots with a 45/70 under 200 yds should be it. Long distance shooting at targets is ok and should be left to the Sharps type rifles. I did a job at a guys house on a farm who shot in black powder long range matches. He had a steel buffalo set up at 1000 yds and his rifle was zeroed for it. We hit the buffalo pretty easy and it seemed like after firing you could put the gun down and sip a drink before the bullet hit
 
48" of bullet drop is about what modern cartridges drop at 500 yards. Most people would consider that about the limit of ethical shooting at game. And only then for people who have invested a lot of time, effort, and money into good equipment and practice. Most people should limit themselves to 300 or less. I'd say 100-200 yards for the 45-70 is about the limit for the same reasons. Just because it has the energy to kill farther does not make it a good idea to attempt so.
 
Corn- picker: you just described my average "i'm bored, relaxing on the couch" evening. So, it is a matter of riflemanship then, not the cartridge. I had read about the sandy hook penetration a long time ago, but forgot...http://www.researchpress.co.uk/longrange/sandyhook.htm yup bad medicine for anything that can bleed. As for ethics, well, only a man who is honest with himself can answer that question for himself. Know your actual field-condition limits... that what practice time is for.
 
Again, it's about more than riflemanship. It doesn't matter how good of a rifleman you are, you can't predict whether your next 45-70 round is going to leave the barrel at 1800 fps or 1840 fps, and that makes a difference at longer ranges.
 
muzzle velocity is a function of ammunition uniformity and an accurate log; if you're shooting factory finest based on a scope zero, you'll never be ethical at 400 with anything. And too many people try to "buy capability" and think that their 300wm can ethically kill a deer or anything else when they haven't studied and applied enough...
Range, is a function of a well-planned ambush or a good range finder, or both, combined with accurate terrain data for angle of site.
Long range shooting isn't a function of equipment, it's weaponized math.
And the math is there that an acceptable variation in hand-loaded data will keep your drop accurate, and the bullet devastating.
 
Most commentators are behind the times in terms of bullet technology. Looking at my Hodgdon manual, I see some ballistic tipped 300 grain bullets that will will break 2400 f/s at the muzzle without exceeding pressures safe for a Marlin1895.

Granted, if the tip is of solid construction, a levergun will have to be a 2-round repeater, but still, a ballistic tipped, 300 grain .45 cal. bullet is far from being a weak tea solution to a big game problem.
 
It doesn't matter how good of a rifleman you are, you can't predict whether your next 45-70 round is going to leave the barrel at 1800 fps or 1840 fps, and that makes a difference at longer ranges.

My present .40-65 load might be 1202 or 1212 fps at worst.
The more highly skilled loaders do better.
 
if you can range your target with a lazar range finder and have the right hight MOA bases for the scope with the proper bullet and speed, hits out to 500yds are not to hard to make. i have watched a browning 32" barreled high wall with a 6x18 leupold target scope hit a two gallon metal oil can(painted white) at a lazared 500yrs more than once for a bench rest, the wind is the big thing as it does move those big bullets. eastbank.
 
ain,t no pleasen every body.i have a good lazar range finder and it is not off 12feet at 500yds. would i shoot at a deer size animal at 500yds with that 45-70, yes if i was on a good rest and the deer was standing broadside. a two gallon oil can is just about the kill area of a full grown deer. would i take a long range shot at a deer with the 45-70 with out having lazaring it or a good rest NO!. eastbank.
 
Have any of you expert marksmen actually killed something at 500 yards with a .45-70? No paint cans don't count.
 
if you can range your target with a lazar range finder and have the right hight MOA bases for the scope with the proper bullet and speed, hits out to 500yds are not to hard to make. i have watched a browning 32" barreled high wall with a 6x18 leupold target scope hit a two gallon metal oil can(painted white) at a lazared 500yrs more than once for a bench rest, the wind is the big thing as it does move those big bullets. eastbank.


If you can afford the type of rangefinder needed to ACCURATELY range a furry animal @500 then I'm guessing you'll hunt with a nicer more suitable gun that name 45/70

How many 45/70's are configured to wear a precision variable scope capable of resolving game suitably at 500? A dark brown deer is a hell of a lot harder to see than a big bright paint bucket.
 
as for relief; the theoretical shot we're talking about of several hundred yards on a game animal would be well suited for an ambush against feeding deer against snow. Don't have the paint the deer white when the ground is.
My original post was about range as a function of ability to ethically produce terminal ballistics: range is a rifle skill variable. I've hit deer at 398 yards (surveyed) with a .308 that I had doped perfectly, and missed a deer running in front of me at less than 38. Practice, practice practice... (And don't underestimate good satellite imagery to assist range finding.) The intermediate ballistics are delicate but if you're doing it right, not finicky. I take exception to the idea of a 40 fps variation between rounds: uh, who is satisfied with that? Especially on a large-bore low pressure round. Good Lord according to my logbook the widest variation is 11 fps between 9 round groups in my .35 rem. If I loaded up .243 ammo w/ that kind of variance I would scrap it. So if you have 40 fps, which at 400 yards would cost you about an inch (on a half-inch wide bullet) you're screwing up your shot when you load it, long before you fire.
 
Like I said it's errors in your range estimation that will make you miss. That and the crosswind at 200 yards you don't know about will blow that low BC bullet around like a bumblebee.
 
The 45-70 also drifts in the wind like a balloon. Just look at a ballistics chart sometime. There's really no reason to bother with it. No rifle or round is a "brush buster". You'd be just as "well off" with slugs in a gas op autoloading 12 ga. Then you'd have faster repeat shots and the option of using bird or buckshot, and you'd have very nearly as much effective range. 100 yds instead of 150 yds with the 45-70 (if you use the 200 gr load in the latter).
 
Hey Coyote 315, how many 400 yard shots have you made with a 45 70 where you took game? If you any have I am bowing down to you. I calculate over 100 inches of drop on a 200 yard zero with my 1500 fps 405 grain loads. This has the bullet falling pretty steeply at 400 yards. You must be an uber marksman.

I limit my 45 70 405 grain rounds at 1500 fps to 140 yards. Past that I won't take the shot.

It will hit a 6 foot square target reliably at a mile. Hitting game at 400 yards is another story.
 
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