Hand made firearms

Yes, it is lawful to make any normal "Title I" firearm for your own use (in almost all states).

It is even legal to sell a gun you made yourself, though if the guy is selling many of them, he's in for an unpleasant visit from the BATFE.

I'm not surprised he didn't care for your comment. Why would you tell him his work looked that bad? Did you tell him his mother was ugly, too?

No, I don't imagine I'd buy someone else's hand-made gun, unless it was someone who I knew, and trusted, and the gun was something really nice.

I would not buy one .

Well, sure. There is a long and interesting history of "hand-made" guns created by folks who really needed something they couldn't otherwise get. In a way, it's really cool that he can. And very, very cool that it is perfectly legal for him to do so.

Sam1911 said:

Well, sure. There is a long and interesting history of "hand-made" guns created by folks who really needed something they couldn't otherwise get. In a way, it's really cool that he can. And very, very cool that it is perfectly legal for him to do so.

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I definitely agree. It isn't an easy business to build a gun yourself without CNC equipment, even then it is a massive challenge because you've got to completely build the gun in 3D with a computer first.

Years back I visited Colonial Williamsburg and of course went to see the gunsmith. You could order a hand built custom flintlock rifle then, I don't know about now. The barrel started out as a flat piece of steel, heated and rolled around a mandrel, then cut rifled. The locks were purchased but the rest of the furniture and wood were made in-house.

Yes, you still can. No, you don't want to know the wait time. Or the cost.

Kiln said:

I definitely agree. It isn't an easy business to build a gun yourself without CNC equipment, even then it is a massive challenge because you've got to completely build the gun in 3D with a computer first.

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Building a gun in 3D on a computer is not too hard if you know what you are doing and have the right program. The question is what program are they using that the CnC machine recognizes, 3ds Max, Maya, or some other program?

Even modern guns (Lee-Enfields, AK-47's) are being made completely by hand in places like the Khyber Pass of Pakistan. They may not be safe to fire, but they're externally presentable. I've also seen handmade guns in this country that can only be described as masterpieces. Given this level of competition, a maker should be self-aware enough that if his products don't measure up, he shouldn't try to inflect them on the public. (If they never sell, that should be an indication to him that maybe he should find another hobby.)

Sam1911, the wait time then was 10 years IIRR. I don't remember the cost other than it being way out of my league.

In most cases with firearms like that they only have to be safe to fire for one round.

In WWII the resistance fighters would hide in the shadows, wait for a sentry to walk by with a nicer firearm, shoot him in the back, take his gun. That is what the WWII Liberator .45 was designed for.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

What was the maker of those beautiful custom guns doing at the gun show? Was he selling his products or merely showing off his talents as a craftsman? If he was selling, he could have legal problems, but some folks are either ignorant of the law or determined to push the envelope, believing that the law couldn't possibly apply to them.

Jim

Out of necessity, I made my first gun in my high-school metal shop class, somewhat surreptitiously during my study halls, lunch, and after school. I had a paper route in nearby Newark and Irvington, New Jersey, and paperboys like me were being robbed and brutalized as we delivered or papers, and especially as we went door to door collecting our payments on Thursday nights. I though the situation intolerable, and was incensed that the police didn't intervene.

I did not possess the machining knowledge to rifle the inside of the barrel, so I used a discarded Ted Williams .22 rifle cut down to make a concealable 2-barrel derringer that, in retrospect, was pretty nicely done for a 16-year old kid. I knew nothing of the gun laws in New Jersey, nor did I care considering my life was at stake. Fortunately, I never had occasion to deploy the weapon, and later discarded it when I got my first "real" gun---a .22 caliber Sterling pistol.

I've made a couple 12 gauge shot guns, and working on a single shot .38 special rifle. I've had a couple failed attempts at making .22 rim fire pistols.

Yes its legal. But I wouldn't sell them, especially at a gun show.

I spent 3 months onboard a Danish flagged semisubmersible drilling rig working with the guy does this kind of hand built work.

http://www.jensen-rifle.dk/default.asp?doc_id=1352&m_id=451&hl_id=1&m_l=1&l_id=28

He builds everything but the action. He cuts the actions and adds/subtracts as needed. Hand builds it all on equipment he's either scored from some closed gun factory or a few hand built lathes. He was some kind of OCD genius with attention to detail like none other I've met in most all aspects of life...and was actually easy to talk about anything. Henrik is his name.

A hand made Pete Grisel action, rings and bottom metal in a hand made 280 Rem by Roger Green. Real ones are out there.

Enter the world of the Luger pistol. Yes parts were manually machined, however each part had to be fitted by hand to each gun by a gunsmith, which is why all the parts are numbered to match said gun. High tolerances and and gun built like a swiss watch.

I definitely agree. It isn't an easy business to build a gun yourself without CNC equipment, even then it is a massive challenge because you've got to completely build the gun in 3D with a computer first.

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Say, what?

There was a table full of crudely made, single shot pistols.

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Personaly I think this clearly breaks the law. I know you can build your own gun for your own use and perhaps sell it someday ? When you built a table full your not going to convince anybody that you are not manufcturing them for sale, and for that you need a license.

I have built a few from parts kits. The easiest was the Sten. I liked building it so much I picked up a few more kits.

I made a single shot black powder pistol many years ago. Pack it, stick a fuze in it, light. SSSSSSSSSSSSSssssssssssssssssBOOM LOL!

"Is this legal?"

My take on federal law: It's a question of intent.

1)Joe wants to try a new design he has thought up, and makes his own gun: legal
2)Fred is a hobby machinist and thinks making a gun would be a cool project: legal
(I've done a 1911 frame and AR upper and lower from scratch)
3)Bob wants a gun but thinks Keltec's are overpriced and decides to make his own: legal
(but he's in for a rude awakening )
4)After making the above guns, Joe, Fred, or Bob decides to sell or give away their
homemade gun(s): legal
5)Mike has had an AR lower forging setting around for a retirement project. Then there
is a panic and AR lowers are selling for $2000. He thinks 'Woot, easy money!!' and
machines the forging into a lower and sells it: not legal.

The dividing line is whether, at the time you made the firearm, you were intending to be
in the business of making the firearm, or if you were making it for personal use and then decided to sell it later.

This is like the rules for buying and selling guns in general: if you are one of those guys who is always falling in love with some new gun, and selling an old one to make room in the safe for the new one, you can buy and sell as many as you like: you're buying and selling personal guns, not as a business.

OTOH, if you're at the pawn shop and see a rare three screw Blurfl Model 86 selling for $50 and you know it's worth $5000, so you buy it and post on facebook 'Just scored an underpriced Model 86 - can't stand those personally, but am immediately going to sell it on Gunbroker for big bucks!!', then you're on thin ice legally. I don't see ATF getting excited about a onesy-twosey thing like that, but ...

So back to the guy with the zip guns: if he just liked to make zip guns, then gets bored with them and decides to sell - no problem. If he figures out he can make them for $50 and sell for $100, and starts doing that because he wants the money - big problem.

As with any crime with an element of intent, how do you prove intent? That's going to be what lawyers call a fact specific question for the jury. You made the guns years ago and are selling because you're downsizing and moving to a smaller house - probably going to convince the jury it's OK. You're there at the gun show month after month with a table of identical, freshly made zip guns - the jury is going to think that's kind of an odd hobby.

State law might be different. IANAL, and you shouldn't take random legal advice from strangers on the internet, and especially not from me

Stay the heck away from those types of guns. Homebuilds are becoming more and more popular, if not common. But the guys who do real good builds almost never sell their builds, so anyone selling their wares who isn't an FFL licensed to do so, I wouldn't trust, not for a second.

Also addressing the pieces of junk on the table. A single action hammer system is easy to build once you actually know what it is supposed to look like and how it is supposed to function. There is a wide variety of ways to actually accomplish one as the principle is quite simple but the method can be quite varied. So then it's a matter of adapting the right receiver for the single action and then fitting a barrel. Of course you can start out with your receiver first then adapt a single action or even double action to it if you want. The easiest barrel to receiver system there is, is the hinge system commonly associated with double-barrel shotguns. A system that was also quite popular in a number of "Howdah" type pistols that had a more sophisticated name I now forget.

I can't imagine one being sold cheap enough to really compete with a Hi-Point unless someone is looking for a weapon for an illicit purpose. And by that, I only know two gentlemen who actually make quality double barrel pistols that would resemble Howdah pistols with quality blueing jobs and barrels and receivers made from 4340 steel billet. Mind you they only make them for themselves.

I wouldn't attempt to sell any of my homebuilds, and I mean from scratch variety. All my NoDak Spud receivers with the attached parts kits I'll probably get around to selling one day, but the stamped receivers I turned out with a CNC Engraver (modified lawfully), a ton press, and my kiln, will never be sold because I don't want the headache of the fed on my neck. Plus I put a lot of time into not only making my homebuilds. I also put a lot of time into making the tools and jigs to make the homebuilds.

Then I finally got a CNC mini mill up and going which cost me nearly all of the money I profited selling a large chunk of my horde during this last panic. And while I haven't accomplished a full from scratch build (means you made the slide and the receiver, and also the small parts except for the springs and the barrel), I'd never sell anything that came off of my mini-mill either, not even slides or small parts. Because again the headaches of dealing with the feds.

It can be done legally, but after everything I've seen the law enforcers do, I wouldn't want to give them any excuse for a no-knock warrant to my house. And believe me, they'll execute a no-knock warrant a three in the morning even if they could bust you at the nearby McDonalds at noon, and have a entry team for your vacant house on standby. They just love to bust in and execute those no-knock warrants, even when they have the wrong address.

^
My brother gave me a bit of advice once: "Don't dance with wolves."

I've always wanted to build a small wheelock BP arm using BIC lighter parts.

Never got around to it, and then I got rid of my little machine shop.

Kinda glad I let that Great Idea go.

Dancing with wolves.

Terry