First semi-auto centerfire: AR-15 vs .308 semi auto

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Centurian22

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I know this has been hashed out a million times before but for anyone willing to share their input on my situation, I greatly appreciate it.

I own a .308 bolt action and reload for .308 (among others). I eventually want to purchase my first centerfire semi-auto rifle. I really like the AR platform in 5.56 and possibly 300blk, I like the adaptability, modularity, and wide spread use of and (usualy) availability of ammo / components. I like that if things happen there is a second caliber that I can make use of if I come across a chance to obtain some.

However all that being said, I like the idea of sticking with less calibers because its one less to stock, keep track of, and be on the lookout for. Most of my reloads would be kept separate between bolt and semi aside from a stock of 'plinking' rounds that I would load and keep that could be used in either. I like the stopping power of .308 but don't feel that .223 is inferior or incapable. I like that there are some things a .223 could probably do better or at least more efficiently with less waste than .308.

Last set of factors: I have a pretty good idea of what I would like in an AR and what it should cost me ($1000-$1400 likely: 5.56 chamber, 1:7 or 1:8 twist, long free float hand guard etc. still debating 16" or 20" barrel). I have NO idea what to look for in the semi auto .308 world outside of the DPMS LR-308 or the S&W M&P10. I would like to stay in a similar price point but could bump it a couple hundred for the 'perfect' solution.

Any help or input is greatly appreciated. Sorry for dredging an old channel.
Thanks!
 
I do believe somebody has the M&P 10 on sale for $1099 somewhere online. I'd go that route, if that's your budget.
 
You have to ask yourself this question?

Do you want a 6-8 pound 5.56 AR-15?

Or a 10-12 pound 7.62 AR-10?

rc
 
Powder, thanks for the info but unfortunately this purchase won't be authorized by the cheif financial officer for a while.

RC, always happy to hear from you. I don't foresee needing to hike, haul or carry this weapon for extreme periods of time, 98% of its use will be at the range, maybe the woods for hunting, and even in the AR I'm considering an 18-20" heavy profile as an option which would close the gap and blur the line further. What do ya have next in the ole bag-o-tricks?
 
Just one tiny piece of info, as a fellow reloader who appreciates cross-compatibility:

308 and 223 like the same powders. These days, powder is the hard-to-get-component. 300 Blackout likes mag pistol powder or slower. 300 Blackout component bullets cost way more than 223 bullets.

I'd open up a new front and buy some 223 dies.
 
Have you considered some of the other rifles in 7.62 NATO? Theres the FAL, Saiga has an AK in .308, offerings from H and K, the FAL, one of the M14/M1a variants, the Kel Tec bulpup rifle, and the FAL?

Can you tell I like the FAL? :D
 
IF you build your own you can put together a wonderful 7.62x51 (NATO) for under $1000.00, maybe well under!
I bought a .308 upper from MidwayUSA "complete" for under $700. I milled out my own 80% lower which actually costs MORE than just buying a serialized lower.
I have a 16" barrel which is plenty...a .308 AR isn't "light" by any standard...not as heavy as say an M1A1, but certainly heavier than any AR built off the 5.56 platform.
That said, a .308 definitely delivers the goods and if you happen to have zillions of rounds laid in it's a "must have" option.

Obviously the .308 Winchester is a step WAY UP beyond all the calibers the AR-15 platform can handle. IF I were starting from scratch I MIGHT look at alternative calibers depending on my needs....the .243 Win is a FABULOUS round that won't kick your shoulder out of joint, but you can also go .338 which will certainly kick your shoulder a bit harder than the .308 does!

As for twist rates...the .308 was figured out a LONG time ago...1:12 is pretty much the ideal twist...we aren't talking about trying to shoot heavy .22 bullets here...1:12 "gets 'er done" for anything 180 grains and below. I see ZERO reason to try and launch 200 grainers from a .308...if you want that then you need to be shopping a different platform. Having pontificated on all that I see my DPMS UPPER came with a 1:10" twist! 1:10 is well in the .30'06 range and even .300 Win Mag for shooting 200 grainers.

Also, there IS a difference between the LR-308 and the AR-10! They are NOT the same, nor are they interchangeable. The AR-10 is Armalite's creation and has a uniqute upper/lower interface NOT shared by the DPMS/LR interface. Magazines for the AR-10 are like M-14 mags...open feed lips at the back, whereas magazines for the LR-308 are slightly longer and are built like 5.56 mags with the feed lips supported at the back.

I will tell you that an LR-308 is a VERY sweet shooting rifle...doesn't kick anywhere close to what an HK-91 does, and certainly not what any bolt action .308 will. It's heavier...a .308 bolt carrier group is HUGE and heavy! Aside from that, the BARREL is huge and heavy!

I just weighed my LR-308 at 9 pounds, 9.7 ounces WITH 20 round C-Products metal magazine in place. (9 lb. 1.8 oz sans mag) Not as bad as I thought, but then I have an AR-15 with lightweight barrel that tips in a just 6 pounds!

I agree with the notion of having a semiauto .308 on hand if you have a LOT of surplus ammo. Even with restricted 10 round mags the .308 is a major round!

OH and the weight of my rifle is with a 16" barrel, and Magpul handguard/grip with standard rifle buffer and stock. IF you replace the Magpul forearm with a quad rail weight will go up...almost certainly over 10 pounds.
 
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Great post Kilibreaux!

I too think a 243 or 260 would be the best of everything (my words). But that wasn't why I complimented.
 
With an AR-15 you can have a lot of fun at the range. You can plink just fine with stock sights or you can go any number of ways to customize and get real serious. And it's relatively inexpensive. Brass, bullets and powder (uses less, 25 or so grs. vs. 40-50) are way cheaper than the 7.62/.308. Factory ammo is too. The AR-15 is just so flexible and perfect as a low end range toy, or it can be ramped up to suit any exotic tastes.
 
ArtP: I have seem the overlap of some powders including my current IMR4895, thank you for the reminder though. I need to look more into how much cheaper .224 bullets are compared to .308 of similar design. .300blk bullets won't be a problem as I already have a bunch of a few different types for my .308 bolt gun. Eventually I would need to try the 200gr for subsonic in .300blk especially if/when I pursue a suppressor.

Kayak-man: I do like the FAL from what little I've looked into it, I'll definitely have to check out some of the others you mention as well. My issue with the FAL is there are SOOOOOO many variants, companies, countries of origin etc that I have NO idea what to look for, seems intimidating. The US made new ones I looked at seemed to run $1700+ which is really stretching what I want to spend. Do you have any links to a page that could simplify and explain the FAL search?

Kilibreaux: WOW thanks for all the input! First, I've always been under the impression and understanding that the standard ar-15 platform was incapable of handling and standing up to the .308? From the start of your post it sounds like I've heard wrong? Or are you referring to using an AR-10 80% lower? That could truly be the do all end all of my issue right there if I can get a .308 upper for an AR-15 lower IF it will function and withstand the 'abuse'. I'm excited about this and will definitely be looking more into it!

As to caliber and twist; I'm not terribly interested in diverting from the 'commons' and had honestly never seen a semi in .243. Also in Maine I'm having trouble finding a place to target shoot at 300+ yards much less anything more. I would LOVE to get a .300 win mag (like the omen .300wm AR DROOL) or a .338 of some sort, there's just nowhere to make use of it or do it justice especially to justify the added ammo / reloading expense. I have been happy with my 1:10 twist on my bolt gun and in my reading think that I prefer to stick with it, I don't see a disadvantage of 1:10 vs 1:12.

I am aware that the different .308 AR's are not interchangable which is definitely one of the downfalls in this category of my choice. I don't have any .308 surplus much less 'lots' or 'zillions' unfortunately. I have some components but not alot of those either, my wife begs to differ but no one here would say I have alot, most would say I don't have enough lol.

The mag capacity is another factor I'm glad you mentioned it. Do .308 semi's usualy top out at 20rd mags for the most part? I am a fan of quantity over caliber (prefer 17+1 of 9mm rather than 10-12 of .45) so if .308 is limited to 20rds and .223/5.56 (and by extension .300blk) has 30rd and now even 40rd mags (magpul) that will play into my choice as well.

Moxie: I have recently seen 5.56 for $8.09/20 which is half of what my cheapest commercial .308 costs. I can reload match .308 for just over $10/20. I definitely need to look into what I could reload .223 for. More bang bang bang for less $$$ is always a good thing and as mentioned before with my limited ranges I don't see any major issues with the .223. I have 4+1 of .308 in my bolt gun to reach out and solve problems, if that doesnt work as the problem gets closer I can then have 30-40rds of 5.56 as a secondary solution.

Sorry for the long reply but its easier for me than writing a separate one for each post. Thank you all VERY much for the input and I look forward to some more info and answers / links to info to help me figure this all out.
 
Honestly, my AR is just a range plinker. It doesn't really have a firm role in my gun collection. I have kept it just because it is such a hotly contested rifle and almost see it as a 'duty' to own one, but I get much more pleasure out of my Garand or a pistol caliber carbine. As I reload for my Garand, I can tell you it can get rather expensive to reload for, especially stuffing 47gr of scarce 4895 in the case. At least my AR case only requires about half that.
 
Chris, I know what ya mean about the American 'duty to own' factor along with who knows when things could go 'stupid' again and we all end up like CA, NY, NJ, CT etc.

Just did some quick searching and figuring and came up with being able to reload .223 for $4.60 (cheap FMJ) to $6.60 (match/hunting bullets) per 20rds bracketing the 'half cost' point as compared to my .308 reloads as well as almost half the cost of surplus (when bought in boxes of 20).
 
Centurian, If your ammo budget allows, I'd stick with .308. Judging by the opening post, I'd say this rifle will at least be on stand-by for SHTF. If that reasoning is at least in the back of your mind, then the fewer calibers you have to stock up on the better. On the FAL route, keep an eye open for SA58s, I've seen some recently around the $1000 mark.

You don't necessarily have to answer these for us, but some of the questions you need to ask yourself are:
1) How much practice/plinking do you want to do with it?
2) What other uses is it for?
3) How much ammo do you want to have on hand?
4) Can you afford that much ammo?

I have to think hard about these questions when it's time for a new defensive gun. I would've liked to stick with .308, but I already had a bunch of .223 from my Mini14 I sold and not as much .308 with not much money left over to stock up on .308 if I went the AR10 route in the foreseeable future. But moving up to an AR15 still moved up my effective range from the Mini.
 
How about the M14?

I think that with all the talk of the LR308 and the FAL you are forgetting about the M14 or M1a. I have a LR308 and I have many M14s. The M14 is equal in weight to my LR308 out of the box. Lighter if I leave the wood stock on the M14. The M14 is more dependable, more common, and just as accurate as an LR308.

The difference between the AR type platforms and the M14 are great. For the sake of simplicity I would like to just put out there that if you need parts, mags, etc. the LR308 or the FAL is not the way to go. If you lived in Europe it would be different. The FAL is prevalent in all the rest of the NATO countries. I think the FAL is a great weapon.

Think of the M14 as the American AK. It goes and goes and goes without problems. It does not need to be doused with CLP every day like an AR or M4. It also drains fast enough coming out of water you can shoot it unlike an AR with a gas system (if that matters). I have five M14s, one FAL, Zero AR-15s and one LR308. I bought the LR308 just to learn the AR system better.

There is a reason why our Marines and Spec Ops units are still using the M14 with the MK 11 Mod 0 stock It reaches out far, is FA or Semi Auto allowing quick follow up shots. It functions well in CQ combat as well as sniping out to 1000 yds with the record held by a Marine in Iraq with two head shots at that range. Typically 800 yds is more reasonable given the .308s limitations. It puts down a drug crazed thug with one shot where an M4 or AR will not. Even with special rounds, the 5.56 does not have enough force to stop a person.

I think the .308 is the right choice. Whatever rifle you choose, you should not stop at one. Redundancy is the word of the day when it comes to weapons. Standardize on one, and one caliber. Add others when you have achieved at least three. Branch out only to cover calibers that might offer you an opportunity to use scavenged ammo such as 5.56, commie ammo, and 9mm, but look to the Mini 14 before an AR. It uses the same unstoppable system the M14 does. and can be put into the same MOD 0 stock system the M14 is now issued with. Or maybe an HK-36.
 
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If you're segregating components and loads anyhow, you might as well add a 5.56mm into the mix.

It uses less powder and cheaper components, meaning more trigger time for the same amount of money. And the AR is popular. Everyone has one, everyone is making stuff for them, and they always seem to be the rifle that gets targeted by the anti-gun crowd. I'd say if you buy an AR and it's not for you, you'll have no trouble recovering most of your cost or even making money on it if you wait until the next panic comes along.

Having said that, if you're leaning hard to the FAL, there are some good ones around. I shot the attached target with a DSA STG-58 a few years back... 3 rounds of South African surplus into 7/8" at 100 yards with open sights was a pretty good performance for me! And the group just over 1" right next to it shows it wasn't too much of a fluke.
 

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I will keep my response short. I would add the AR 15 to your collection. It's a great range gun and has proven itself as a defense weapon. There are powders that will work in both so all you have to add to your supplies are the bullets. Reloading costs will be less because of powder useage and cost of bullets. Plus factory ammo is cheaper and will let you shoot it more often.
 
* * * I have NO idea what to look for in the semi auto .308 world outside of the DPMS LR-308 or the S&W M&P10. I would like to stay in a similar price point but could bump it a couple hundred for the 'perfect' solution.

Dude, not trying to be harsh, but you need to be thinking about the so-called "buy once, cry once" risk. The 5.56mm ARs aside, you're going to have problems with the 7.62/.308 ARs if you try to go cheap, like staying south of $2000. The S&W M&P and Ruger 7.62 ARs haven't been out there long enough, nor in sufficient numbers, to have generated round counts high enough to have proven themselves reliable.

For that money, you should just stick w/ a basic 5.56mm AR set-up and call it good. Once you've put in some significant trigger time with it, then you can decide if you want to move to a .308 on that platlform, after researching what you'll have to spend for a problem-free, accurate specimen.

Me, I've spent 30+ years shooting AR rifles, and in 7.62/.308/30.06, shooting M1As & M1Gs. I own 3 LMT 5.56mm MRPs, and understand them extensively. So, because I was already comfortable with the LMT MRP system, I went with their LM8 "slickside" rifle with 16" C/L barrel as my first 7.62/.308 AR. The LM8 is a slightly lighter variant of LMT's first 7.62 MRP rifle, the MWS. The MWS was recently adopted by the British military after extensive trials against other 7.62 competitors.

At the same time I purchased the LM8, I also ordered the 18" SS, 1-11.25" twist SPR barrel for precision work. Regardless of which barrel is on the rifle, it's very accurate, and I've had zero issues as far as reliability. While the dual purchased saved me some dollars, the cost was still well north of $3,000.

Buy once and, if it's a quality rifle, cry not at all. Just sayin' ... :rolleyes:
 
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First, the AR15 issue with .308 isn't strength of the lower, its the size. You physically can't fit a .308 cartridge in a magazine. You can't get it through the mag well to feed. The bulk of the forces of the shot run through the buffer tube, making the lower rather low stress (and why two aluminum pins can hold the two together). The AR10 and LR308 are stretched in the mag well to handle the longer rounds.

My suggestion would be the AR15 platform. The .308 is a more capable round but it doesn't sound like you will be using this at much more than the range, and even then at 300 yards and in. At those ranges, your target isn't going to know if you shot a .308 or a .223. I also don't like the amount of proprietary components to each setup. It's just too murky for my taste. Plenty of amazing rifles have been built and bought, but I like my Lego's to all work with each other.

Now comes the question of 300blk or .223/5.56. That comes down to how much you shoot, how much you reload, and how much you enjoy reloading.

I think the 300blk is a better fun round at 300 yards and in than .223/5.56. It is completely dependent on reloading though. If you dislike reloading or don't have a setup to reload in large quantities I would grab a standard 5.56 upper. The beauty is that if in a few months down the road you wish to have the other, you can build or buy your desired upper and slap it on the AR15 lower. The Blackout only requires a 300 Blackout barrel to be used on an AR15. Everything else is standard AR15 components. I would suggest a complete upper if you do want to swap as it's far easier than disassembling the upper each time and a given bolt should only really be used on a single barrel.

When it comes to cost to shoot, look at what you plan to shoot. These rifles, while often darn accurate, are really suited for the speed game rather than absolute precision. At 300 yards and in, what difference is a 1MOA setup compared to a 2 MOA setup for range use? Even most steel targets are larger than those groups. As such, I like to load the cheapest pull down bullets I can get for range use. Now, if you want to hunt or compete or just brag, buy the best bullet you can. But for fun at the range, the cheapies work great.

So what does that then cost to load (when buying in modest but not extreme quantities)?

Well cases between a .223/5.56 and 300blk are the same case, so no difference there. Dies are the same cost. Trimmers are the same. Primers are the same. You do have to cut the .223/5.56 brass down though that can be done accurately enough with a dremel or a harbor freight cutoff saw. Bullet cost for .223/5.56 plinking rounds will be better than 300blk. As of today, the best prices I can quickly find in stock for 5.56 bullets are at $0.09/bullet (55gr FMJ). For .308 bullets, you can grab some plated bullets (safe through 300blk velocities) for $0.12/bullet. Powder though is exact opposite. Typical loads for 300blk (assuming the same cheap 150gr bullet found above) run in the 15-17gr range. Typical loads for 55gr .223 loads run in the 22-25gr range. At $25/pound and with 7000gr/lb, that calculates out to $0.05-$0.06/charge for 300blk and $0.08-$0.09/charge for .223/5.56.

What does that mean? Well, if you are only reloading, the cheapest possible plinking ammo is about the same price from your standard .223/5.56 load to your standard 300blk load.

Ok, so then how would I pick (assuming my opinion is valuable). Well, first I would think about reloading. If you ever get the idea that shooting factory ammo is a possibility, I'd go .223/5.56. The little factory ammo for 300blk is limited and expensive. Even the cheaper options are about twice what the cheapest .223/5.56 factory ammo can be found, it will come in converted .223/5.56 brass, and it will be from a smaller scale boutique ammo manufacturer rather than one of the large producers.

If you think a suppressor is in the future, I'd go 300blk. You will be able to thread your bolt .308 and use it on both rifles. The subsonic 300blk behind a suppressor is a joy to shoot and is typically a reliable setup. Suppressed .223/5.56 is going to be supersonic to cycle an AR15. It's unfortunate but it's just life. The crack is still unpleasant and last I knew (haven't looked at 5.56 cans recently) still regulated to what is classified as hearing unsafe.

If you want to compete in any game, the standard .223/5.56 round is almost always a better choice. It shoots flatter, drifts less, has more optic options with BDC reticles, and has multiple factory match grade ammo available. Unless the 300blk fits in a class that gets it bonus points for caliber, I haven't seen it be competitive.

I think the 300blk is a better small/medium game rifle at 200 yards and in. Depending on velocity, some bullets may not perform well beyond 150-200 yards but in the window that they do operate as designed, they are my choice.

The 300blk is more finicky, especially on a carbine length gas system. On a pistol length setup (and optimally a pistol length barrel) gas port pressure is much better but in a carbine setup, gas pressure at the port is very low (fast burning pistol powders don't last long enough to keep pressure high). This is mainly an issue with the big heavy bullets with faster powders and lighter charges. Some setups required a lot of tuning (drilling the gas port hole, adjustable gas blocks, PICKING THE CORRECT POWDER!!!) to run reliably without a suppressor using subsonic ammo.

To end this drawn out post, I have 3 AR15s in 5.56 and 1 in 300blk. For a simple grab and go rifle, you can't beat picking up a case of cheap(ish) bulk 5.56 from the local gun store and blasting away. It's very easy and takes little effort to go have fun. I also reload on a progressive press. For the quantities I shoot, I can load a couple weeks worth of ammo in an hour or two. With that being the case, I enjoy shooting the 300blk more. Not by a ton, but enough to load it up. I think for the avid reloader, the 300blk offers a greater performance window shooting from 110gr bullets up to 220-240gr bullets as well as giving the option to reliably cycle subsonic ammo.

The old saying I've heard over and over is that you can't go wrong with your first AR being in 5.56. I tend to agree, though I think for someone used to shooting and reloading, 300blk may not be wrong either. After you have one, you can buy or build a complete upper in the other for $500 or so (on the cheaper side) and have the option to shoot either depending on your mood with the push of two pins.
 
Wow! I'm amazed and impressed with how much input you have all given! To clarify a few things: as much as I'd like to (scratch that LOVE to), buying / owning / adding many more guns of different types is not in the books. The wife already thinks I have too many guns. She didnt understand the true meaning when we were dating and I told her I was "Into Guns". She can see the point of one handgun one shotgun and one rifle but thats it. Its already a stretch for me to get her to understand / go along with getting a centerfire semi-auto. Finances are also a major consideration. A few decades down the road when I'm into retirement and the house and vehicles are all paid off and we have no debt I will probably be given a little more freedom but until then not so much, and she's right as of know the financially responsible thing to do is focus on debt. So that being said $2000 would be ABSOLUTE max, but at that price point I think I would be happier keeping the gun in the $1200-$1400, $200-500 in glass / accessories / mags, and a little left over for ammo / reloading supplies.

Use of gun will be mostly at the range but will have the potential to be used for hunting (deer, yotes, yard / garden pests etc), property defense, if suited (shorter AR or similar) possibly home defense, and also yes an overall defense weapon in the case of "tough times" (be that in whatever form it may come), and finally maybe some informal / local competition if I get to that point. That's part of my drive to the AR because they are so common, so widespread and so interchangable.

The ammo cost is beginning to drive me more and more towards 5.56/.300blk. I don't shoot much but would like to shoot more and cheaper ammo would help that. The M14 looks cool but I don't think its quite for me. Goon nice shooting! How much did that stg-58 cost you if you don't mind me asking?

Benzy2: thanks for the reloading breakdown. I had no idea how close .300blk would be to .223 due to the powder / bullet trade off. Always figured the powder would be similar and bullets obviously more. I have some 147 FMJ plinking bullets I need to do work up with in my .308 bolt. So far I've only shot match or hunting rounds. I need to see how good the plinkers can be and accept them for what they are, cheap but good practice and fun.

On the note of .300blk, I need to do some more balistic studying. I've heard it was designed to be shot from the 8-10" barrel and there isn't much advantage to a 16". I'll only believe that after seeing some definitive proof. Something like the Same load fired from 10" barrel then 16" barrel over a chrony. Also with reloading I would imagine you could tune / push a .300blk to be 'optimized' to any barrel length by adjusting burn rate and charge weight of the powder. I am fond of doing a pistol length AR in .300blk, using the 'arm brace' to avoid dealing with an SBR, then POSSIBLY eventually getting a can for it. Good point about threading my .308 and being able to use the same can that could come in handy. I saw a cool picture on Facebook the other day of a woman holding a suppressed AR that said "This protects my children's ears while I protect their lives." Powerful and valid message there. If I do intend to use a short AR for home defense I'll have to study .223 vs .300 for incapacitation and penetration (enough and also not too much).

Who knows maybe I'll start with a 'standard' AR then branch out with uppers in .300, maybe try both a short and long barrel for myself keep what I like more or keep both and eventually put them each in their own upper. Then as time money (and the wife) allows, buy or build lowers to go with them. I would love to try my hand at an 80% lower but only have hand tools for now and feel that at least a drill press would be nice to have for that.

Agtman what problems do you expect me to encounter with the .308 platforms under $1600? I agree the two I mention haven't been around all that long but so far the reviews and comments about them seem to be quite positive. Yes I want to buy quality and have a gun that will last but at absolute MAX in my wildest dreams of free time I MIGHT put 500-1000 rounds a year through this gun (at least until I live where I can shoot on my own property. Much more likely I'll be looking at under 500rds per year. This will not be a battle rifle that I rapid fire thousands of rounds a week through for training (as fun as that sounds its just not realistic for me).

Thanks again to everyone, please keep it coming this is all helping me alot to pick away at my decision bit by bit.
 
Centurian22 - That STG-58 cost me about $1,100 circa 2004 when I bought it. At the time, I wanted a good semi-auto rifle and had already owned an FAL and done a little gunsmithing to make it run right, and DSA was the most reputable builder. Surplus 7.62 Nato was available for $140 per thousand (Portuguese, then South African when the Port dried up) and metric FAL magazines were $10 each, new in wrap. If you find a deal on one you could maybe get into an FAL now, but I think the original STG parts kits that DSA was building them on have dried up. But DSA still makes the SA58 in many variants. As you're no doubt aware, ammo prices have risen a lot since then. I think the last .308 ammo I bought in bulk was Lithuanian surplus, but I've been out of the .308 game for awhile except for a few handloads I cranked out for a Ruger GSR I briefly owned.

Truth be told, with AR parts, magazines, and accessories being everywhere now and ammo costs being what they are, I don't think I'd buy a semi-auto .308 today. I'd just buy a good AR instead. You've already got a good grasp on the reasons why.
In your financial situation, might I suggest getting a stripped lower or two and starting with that to build what you want? I've seen "blemished" lowers from Palmetto State Armory out of SC that are so nice that I couldn't tell where the blemish was. I saw one tried for fit on BCM and Armalite uppers and it locked up just fine, so I think they're pretty good quality. Right now they're selling the blemished ones for $59 each, so I can't imagine an 80% lower being worth the hassle when you could just buy a lower ready to build on in the same price range.

http://palmettostatearmory.com/

PSA does have slow shipping and may not be the first choice for everything, but I'd consider their lowers or those from Aero Precision as a possible starting point. If you can spread the cost of the build out over a long time, maybe your spouse won't have such strong objections. Just an idea.
 
I just paid $1,406.42 delivered plus a $20.00 transfer fee for my DPMS LR 308 G2. It comes in at 8.5 lbs per their specs. I have not weighed it my self. The M&P 10 specs at 7.5 lbs.

The down side to the Smith as I see it, is that they have a little less aftermarket support. Mag pul and a few others make quite a bit of stuff for the DPMS plat form. Not to mention DPMS advertises that from the mag well back the new G2 series is AR 15 compatible, both fire controls and buffer tube. I believe they also say the hand guard is as well.

I can't tell you how much fun I had shooting my new gun tonight. However, I have only put 50 rounds through it. So liability is yet to be proven.

As far as affordability. If you look and are patient/creative you can shoot pretty cheap considering it's a 308. I just got 500 pulled 175 grain SMK's for 130.00 and 500 pieces of once fired lake city brass for $70.00 not to mention the 8lbs of surplus H335 for 150 last month.

Given how much I like my new 308, I still would not give up my AR 15. Still cheaper to shoot and less recoil.

But if like me your set on a semi auto 308 I would look into the M&P 10 the new DPMS G2 series and the Ruger.
 
It's certainly worth running the idea of spreading the cost out over time with a build by her though I don't expect stellar results because "I don't need another gun". I also envision it driving me absolutely batty having parts of an incomplete rifle of my dreams just laying around waiting for many months if not years before they get put to use. At $59 you're right it would be quite tough to beat. As for the 80% lower, I would be doing it as a project to say I did it myself and to have an un-serialized 'firearm' for all the purposes that may serve.
 
Compared to other semiauto 308s, the AR style will come out on top in the accuracy dept with little or no work other than working up a load that it likes.

1:10 is my preferred twist and it actually performs quite well with 150 gr bullets and you have the option to go as heavy as you like.

I have not had ANY trouble with 1100 dollar AR-308's, nor have I seen anyone else have any trouble. I have seen a DPMS put 5 shots under a half inch at 100 yds. (not mine) I can't speak for gas piston guns, but all the direct impingements I've seen have functioned just as well any 3000 dollar AR.

16" bbl AR 308s can be reasonably light if you don't pile a bunch of tactical crap on them. My 20" HBAR A2 though is another story. 11.5 lbs w/scope and no mag.

Just my opinion based on my experience.
 
Agtman what problems do you expect me to encounter with the .308 platforms under $1600? I agree the two I mention haven't been around all that long but so far the reviews and comments about them seem to be quite positive.

Wasn't trying to be condesending, but the most efficient answer is to research the .308 AR topic over on SnipersHide, where this issue has been discussed frequently, as more long-term .308 AR users seem to be members there, which, consequently, produces a wider experience- & knowledge-base and a greater amount of informed discussion, along with solutions.

The short answer is that problems with .308 ARs can include FTFs, FTE, short-stroking, etc. , with guys having to tweak the factory recoil spring & buffer combo with a heavier/stronger aftermarket spring/buffer, up to returning the rifle to the maker under warranty. Some report finding that their bolt carrier was scaping the rear of the receiver during recoil, or the gas tube and/or gas port was out of spec.

Tier-1 .308 ARs (Larue OBRs, GAP-10s) seem to do better, but they're not always problem-free either, and they also cost much more than your willing to spend for a .308 on that platform. The KACs & LMT rifles, generally, demonstrate reliable performance. The good news is that LMT, DPMS, GAP, et al have taken care of their customers, or so the reports would indicate. As mentioned above, I got a good one, at least so far, and it's quite accurate.

* * * The wife already thinks I have too many guns. She didnt understand the true meaning when we were dating and I told her I was "Into Guns". She can see the point of one handgun one shotgun and one rifle but thats it. Its already a stretch for me to get her to understand / go along with getting a centerfire semi-auto. Finances are also a major consideration. A few decades down the road when I'm into retirement and the house and vehicles are all paid off and we have no debt I will probably be given a little more freedom but until then not so much, and she's right as of know the financially responsible thing to do is focus on debt. So that being said $2000 would be ABSOLUTE max, but at that price point I think I would be happier keeping the gun in the $1200-$1400, $200-500 in glass / accessories / mags, and a little left over for ammo / reloading supplies.

< Deleted by ugaarguy >

Seriously, Dude, take a good look at the 5.56mm/.223 AR market today - not "a few decades down the road." It's in a glut right now and not just for AR rifles & carbines, but for 5.56mm/.223 ammo, mags, optics, and all the other accessories. It's a buyer's market NOW, and there are lots of deals to be had.

Last week at the LSG across town from me, they had a NIB Colt LE6920 (A3) for $1400.00 that had been there for 4 months. Yesterday a guy walked it OTD for $1000. And that was a Colt ...

... The local Gander Mt has tons of in-stock .223 & 5.56mm FMJ ammo, from all makers, selling at a trickle. It's sitting on the floor on pallet jacks, some of the boxes sliding off on to the floor. GM has started some volume sales pricing on some brands. .308 ammo is likewise plentiful. The only ammo I can't seem to find anywhere in my area, except a box or two once in a while, is .22l.r.

The next "active shooter" incident in which the BG uses an AR-something will precipitate a nasty run on all things AR, especially the guns, mags & ammo, with shortages and price-gouging to ensue even without the threat of a federal ban, and you could get locked out. You should be thinking about acting "today" & "right now," not "a few decades down the road" when you assume you'll be financially set.

Given your preferred limit of $1400.00, my recommendation, FWIW, is to locate a flat top 16" carbine in 5.56mm (not .233) from a reputable maker (Colt, LMT, etc.) Then, while we still have a pricing- and availibility-glut, get as much 5.56mm ammo and as many 30-rd mags and some sort of red-dot optic as both your present cash-flow & the wife will permit.

Then get to a range and get your AR zero-ed, put some trigger-time into it, and, if you can, I'd also recommend attending a tactical training course in your area.

Good luck ... :cool:
 
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Centurian, if you are still thinking this dilemma out I will add my two cents: I built a PSA AR for hog hunting (.223) and left it with my best friend in Texas, he added a night vision scope. The rifle has been out for three night "stake outs" and each night netted a hog, the first about 300 pounds did not move after being hit with a 55 gr. FMJ. Number two went down and then rolled up and inti impenetrable woods, the third was about 150 pounds and just dropped in his tracks....again all were shot with 55grain FMJ.
I have since built a really exciting 300 blackout and am planning a trip to see how it will work on those stinky little critters.
Good luck in your final choice.
 
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