5.56 and the 7.62x39

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Archangel14

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Guys:

I don't know whether or not this is a better topic for the Ammunition section, but here's my question:

What round do you think would be more effective against human targets from the 25 to 75 yard range?...the 5.56 or the 7.62 x 39? Assume the use of FMJ ammo. What round will stop the threat more effectively? Quicker?

I know what the range of ballistics of each, so we don't need to get into that. I'm just interested in what makes a human body stop more readily. I don't mean to get gruesome here:barf:, but I am interested in the real world effects of each round. Thanks
 
I would give the advantage to the 5.56 because of much greater cavitation. Both are effective at that range. I would agree the 7.62x39 has greater penetration of hard objects. IMHO the 5.56 was more effective in combat, I was there. And I have used both deer hunting. I have shot very large bucks with each, both did the job. The .223 shot 14 pt buck died closer and quicker than the 10 pt shot with the 7.62x39 and showed more damage to the heart lung area but they were not shot at the same angle. Also the 5.56 NATO has dominated the 7.62x.39 in combat for close to 50 years.
Deer hunting was with soft point ammo so that may not mean anything to you. As far as I know the advantage goes to the higher velocity in FMJ rounds as well which would again be 5,56 NATO.
 
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I have lots of faith in the ability of an M193 spec bullet to do its thing quite nicely in the ranges you've selected; I have seen it do some really impressive things due to tumbling and/or fragmentation.

The 7.62x39 will work admirably as well, but I would choose the smoother shooting, lighter recoiling 5.56 and I'd choose the M193 over the M855.

Now, is this going to be used inside a building? I keed, I keed...:D:D:D
 
The .223 shot 14 pt buck died closer and quicker

Yikes! That must have been a monster. My father in-law just bagged a rather large 10 pointer in Wisconsin using his 'ole Remmy 30-06. And by the way, the 30-06 is simply a devastating round, as you all know.

it depends on if the humans are hiding behind something or not.

That's a consideration. But no, just interested in what stops a bad guy better.

Now, is this going to be used inside a building? I keed, I keed

No, not likely ever. And I pray I'll never have a need to fire a shot at anyone!
 
The 7.62x39 is a lot more effective on deer and hogs. Why wouldn't it be better o humans? It lacks the range of the .223, so it depends on range, i suppose. Got to hit it to kill it.

I've taken two deer with the 7.62x39. I wouldn't waste my time with the .223. Many states the .223 is illegal for deer hunting...for a reason.
 
Just get quality defensive ammo for your serious mags. DON'T use your plinking ammo or some lame mil surplus stuff. But get enough quality defensive ammo to test. That's the key. With proper quality ammo, either of those rounds is devastating.

Hornady TAP still the good stuff????

Obviously 7.62x39 will punch through brick better. But IMO, doesn't feed as well through the mags.

Both of those calibers have a habit of zipping right through someone and not doing jack, if you use the wrong ammo. Ok,:uhoh: My bug out bag is loaded with piss poor ammo. But that's only because I tested most of my good stuff and ran out of $$$.

.300BLK is the round you want to look into next. AR reliability and accuracy, 7.62x39 punching power.
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/61...rain-jacketed-hollow-point-subsonic-box-of-20
 
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I wouldn't waste my time with the .223. Many states the .223 is illegal for deer hunting...for a reason.

I don't know. I think d2wing would disagree with you.
 
His perogative. I've been hunting deer since 1963. I'm pretty well set on my deer rifles. As to the question of the OP, the 7.62x39 is almost a .30-30 power wise. The 154 Tula soft point is deadly on hogs and they have a bit thicker bone structure than humans. That's a lot of bullet, though energy is a might off .308 or something serious. But, inside 200 yards, I'll take it over the .223 just as I'd take the .30-30 over the .223. The .223 will shoot farther, or at least flatter, if you want to kill someone at 400 yards, but where I come from, they call that murder.

Bear in mind, either will work. Humans are very easy animals to kill, very thin skinned. Humans are lot easier to kill than deer and hogs, so both are excessive for the purpose IMHO.
 
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Assuming the 5.56 is the M193, then I'd give it the nod. The newer M855 is disliked by some for poking holes. See "Blackhawk Down" and other examples. The even newer M855A1 is supposed to have better terminal performance. There are also some heavier rounds like the MK262 that are really good.

The main benefit of the 7.62X39 is penetration. But, given the right bullet, the 5.56 is more effective overall.
 
FMJ, I'll take 5.56 as they will fragment at those ranges. The 7.62x39 FMJ rounds tumble, but they don't start tumbling until after a lot of penetration so the wound track is a hole for a good portion. This is typical performance, sometimes the 5.56 FMJs don't frag, sometimes the 7.62x39 tumbles early. Impact angle also plays a role.

The 7.62x39 soft points can perform very well, but if we're opening up the bullet types, 77 and 75g OTMs and the bonded bullets in the 60g weight range do very well in 5.56 as do a few others like the TSX line.

I always find the "in many states the .223 is illegal to hunt with" line amusing...in many states it is legal, so which bureaucrats are right? :neener:
 
The original M16 had a 1:13 rifling rate. This resulted in an unstabilized bullet, one that tumbled immediately upon contact. The result was the terrible wounds that many reported. Yes, at shotgun distances, they were also terribly effective rifles.

Problems occurred when it was realized that distances of 100 yards, or more, the bullets were wandering all over the place. Penetration of concealment, much less cover, was also miserable. It couldn't penetrate a NATO helmet at 100 yards, a requirement WE pushed. It was also found that the rifling caused problems in cold weather with function and performance.

When the rifling rate was reduced to 1:9. accuracy and penetration improved markedly. However, a stable bullet didn't produce the effective wounding of the older design.
 
The original M16 had a 1:13 rifling rate. This resulted in an unstabilized bullet, one that tumbled immediately upon contact.

I'm pretty sure they were/are 1:12,and the barrels of a lot of early guns tell the same tale. Lets not kid ourselves, the bullet would need to be stabilized, or else it would not even fly straight. The M16, even in its early years, were noted for their accuracy, amongst other things. This being in the presence of its M1 Garand and M14 predecessors. Now, the M193, combined with the 1:12 twist was mated together so as to create an easily disrupted flight path, that much is true.

Problems occurred when it was realized that distances of 100 yards, or more, the bullets were wandering all over the place.

My experiences in shooting my '76 SP1 rifle, as well as a previously owned '82 HK 93A3, told a different story. With the 1:12 twist, those rifles were exceptionally accurate at 100-300 yards even with the M16/SP1 primordial aperture sights. The whole debate of penetrating power against thick vegetation, vehicles, building materials, etc. continues to this day, which makes one wonder whether or not the argument had a lot of merit 50 years ago, yet we are still here arguing over it in 2014.

I own and shoot both calibers regularly. Each has their own merits. I tend to think of the 7.62x39 as having superior penetration across the board, which may or may not be desirable depending on the use/requirements/situation. The 5.56 offers a wide range of bullets to achieve a wide range of results, and as a bonus the trajectory is much more inline with that or a rifle, rather than that of a sub-machine gun.
 
Let's get our facts straight.
The original M16 had a 1:13 rifling rate. This resulted in an unstabilized bullet, one that tumbled immediately upon contact. The result was the terrible wounds that many reported. Yes, at shotgun distances, they were also terribly effective rifles.
The earliest M16s had a 1:14 twist. It was very quickly changed to a 1:12 twist rate. The bullet still tumbled but cold weather performance was improved.

Problems occurred when it was realized that distances of 100 yards, or more, the bullets were wandering all over the place. Penetration of concealment, much less cover, was also miserable. It couldn't penetrate a NATO helmet at 100 yards, a requirement WE pushed. It was also found that the rifling caused problems in cold weather with function and performance.
M193 ball will penetrate a NATO helmet at 100 yards when fired from any rifle that will stabilize it.

When the rifling rate was reduced to 1:9. accuracy and penetration improved markedly. However, a stable bullet didn't produce the effective wounding of the older design.
The US Military has NEVER used a 1:9 twist rate on standard issue rifles. You're thinking of the 1:7 twist rate in the M16A2. The 1:7 twist is necessary to stabilize M855 ball and M856 tracer in cold weather. M855 ball has a steel penetrator. It was adopted late in the Cold War to penetrate Soviet / WARSAW soft body armor in the feared WW3 scenario of the Reds storming across the European plain. M193 will still tumble violently and fragment even when fired from a 1:7 twist bbl.

Just shows how marginal the .223 is for deer hunting. I don't know of a rifle legal state that outlaws .300 Winchester Magnum. .22s, though, are marginal.
.300 Win Mag is marginal when idiots fire heavy construction bullets through a deer's chest or abdominal cavity, which don't offer enough resistance for the heavy construction bullets to expand. .223 is marginal when the idiots on the opposite end of the spectrum fire light construction bullets into a deer's shoulder and the bullet expands upon impact minimizing penetration into the chest cavity. Caliber is damn near meaningless if you can't select an appropriate bullet and place that bullet in the proper area of the animal's anatomy. The 6.5x55 Swede is a popular Eurasian Elk (what we call Moose in N. America) cartridge in Scandinavia. The folks in the US who say .223 Rem isn't enough for Whitetail Deer are the same ones who insist that .30-06 is the minimum caliber needed to kill a Moose.
 
I shot and carried a number of the early M16s, 1:12 twist, with M193 rounds. Lots of times over many years. They were tackdrivers. Aside from lightness, the M16's accuracy was the main thing most people liked about the M16 the first time they shot it. The tumbling occurs when the M193 bullets hit the target.

The Air Force only had original M16s until after the first M16A2 buy in 1992. We bought stocks of the M855 concurrently to match their new 1:7 twist. We also had shortys, e.g., GAU5s, but in pretty small numbers. They were pretty much reserved for SP flight chiefs.
 
There is no comparison between a soft point 30-06 and either the 5.56 or 7.62.x39. The 30-06 will stop anything in North America. That is a good point. Also a soft point is more effective by far on humans and deer. I have not had an opportunity to shoot pigs, they don't survive in the wild here. Would take Mcgunners word for it on that. I understand his skeptism, I was too until I shot deer with it.
 
I would offer what Barnes has been selling for years as a hunting bullet - hollow cavity bullets of gilding metal. FMJ is a combat round precisely because soldiers have to penetrate obstacles and body armor to get a hit. And, a hit is more likely to incapacitate the enemy, which diminishes his ability to continue the fight.

It's an error to require the enemy to fall down dead right there. First, because of the wide range of circumstances that will prevent it, which many soldiers and hunters have reported. A center of mass shot into the human being does not guarantee death. Second, that a soldier who is hit may still be capable of continuing the fight - humans react in a wide pattern of behavior, one who is mortally wounded may still be capable of combat, another who is lightly struck might disengage completely.

The effort in self defense ammunition it to STOP THE FIGHT. Full metal jacket has a habit of drilling small holes thru it's target with less cavitation, and has more retained energy that isn't imparted into the target. Therefore it's a general conclusion that FMJ won't stop as readily as a bullet designed to expand.

One of the early difficulties with AR15 hunters was the pronounced lack of expanding point bullets - FMJ was just whistling thru deer and the caliber was getting the blame for it. Load those up with expanding tip bullets and the results are largely different, as more knowledgeable hunters and shooters will explain. One important issue in this discussion is that more conservation departments have issued a regulatory ban on FMJ than 5.56. It's how the bullet is constructed that counts, not the caliber.

Missouri now allows any centerfire cartridge, which is a major change from the days where 5.56 wasn't allowed. And in the hands of an experienced hunter, game the size of elk can be brought down with 6.5 and 6.8 bullets. Those hunters were NOT using FMJ.

The expanding point bullets do the better job at stopping, and the same is true in law enforcement, who also have to consider the liability of the projectile passing thru and striking another citizen. The conclusion of many is that FMJ doesn't impart enough of it's energy into the target compared to expanding point, and it's the energy that causes the target to stop fighting, not the size of the bullet hole. After that, disrupted tissue could allow blood loss to kill the target, but that is a delayed reaction - it could take a minimum of 30-90 seconds for consciousness to be lost, enabling the attacker to continue the fight.

The OP requiring which FMJ round would be better invites the observation that for the use considered, FMJ isn't the best choice if at all. The real question is which type of bullet is the better stopper, and if the issue of being humane is included, then using FMJ is known to require further follow up shots to stop the attack. What's better, one shot, or half a dozen, at stopping an attacker?

It's a question that as been discussed on forum boards for over ten years, it takes insight and even training to get an idea of what is the real end goal. All too often the real question is which cartridge will knock down an opponent Hollywood style, and the answer is the two prop guys hauling away on the steel wire attached to the actor. If it can knock down a 165 pound human, Newton's laws indicate the shooter will be, too.
 
But in SOOO many cases, it's not a case of which round or which weapon is best. It usually boils down to which SHOOTER is best. A well-trained shooter with a mediocre weapon will probably still be able to get more out what he's shooting, than a mediocre shooter will be able to get out of "the best weapon", whatever we decide that to be.

Knowing, understanding and learning how to circumvent the limitations of whatever weapon is in use, is will often be the deciding factor in whatever "contest" is anticipated.
 
The OP requiring which FMJ round would be better invites the observation that for the use considered, FMJ isn't the best choice if at all.

Excerpt from a truly excellent post. Following up with a question to Tirod: how about soft point as a defensive round, in either 5.56 or 7.62x39? And if soft points are an appropriate choice, which caliber would be the better "defensive round" within 25 to 75 yards? Thank.
 
I think the platform you would rather use is more important that the chambering. 7.62x39 can be problematic in an AR and offer no savings in the cost of the rifle. AKs have poor ergos as issued, but can be greatly improved upon...but then they cost almost as much as the AR.

The 5.56 has the benefit of having lots of good defensive ammo choices both available and tested. 7.62x39 less so, but there are some great performing soft points for it.

Any soft point or hollow point shown to perform well in testing will be a lot better than FMJ.

7.62x39 154g soft points
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=277712&highlight=7.62x39+test

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=765338&highlight=7.62x39

7.62x39 FMJ (not so great)
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?

Edit: I sense there is info you are holding back that would likely make the answer easy. Do you already own rifles in one or both calibers? If so, which do you shoot best? If not, what rifle do you have more experience or prefer? With good ammo, the tie goes to the platform you would rather have and be a better shooter with. Especially as you don't care about barriers or hunting which would give an edge to the 7.62x39.
 
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All things being equal the 7.62x39 is the better choice. I've shot several deer with a .243 and was disappointed with the results of clean shots to the lungs, so i would never take a 5.56 unless it was all I had. All things being equal I'd rather a 7.62x51 than either of them.
 
5.56 is much faster and practically explodes on impact at those distances, creating massive hemorrhaging and cavitation. Most 7.62x39 loads are known to pencil through causing minor wound but there are some that yaw.

Still, give me the 5.56 at that range.
 
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