Another Glock "KB" This time in 9mm

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I'm gonna say that it was a double charge.

The "Glock Bulge" and "Guppy Belly Bulge" as well as lost support bursts from excess headspace or out of battery firing occur forward of the case web, where the brass gets thin.

This one bulged and blew out in the case head. Takes pressure to do that. Lots of it.
 
As stated in the article a range I visit actually makes you pull your ammo out of the bag and if not in factory new boxes with the same head stamp they mak you buy their reloaded ammunition or you can't use their range. And they are good people but site insurance as the reason.
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I'd love to see the binding legalese on this one. Much more likely, the owners simply don't like the percieved risk of dealing with the inevitable ignorant moron. If my hot rodded engine blows up in their parking lot, it's not their fault, either. Do they also check to make sure everyone's ammo is the correct chambering, as well?

TCB
 
Lead bullets do not cause ka-booms in Glocks.

About 10 years ago the range supervisor of a large metro department (400+ officers), another officer and myself discussed this issue with GlockUSA. We were told the reason they do not recommend use of lead bullets is because if jacketed bullets are shot before the lead is cleaned out of the barrel it will result in excessive pressure with predictable results.

Image Glock thinking officers will be too lazy to properly clean their guns after shooting lead bullets after qualification.
 
For what it's worth: I bought a used 19 in 1992 and I've shot mainly my own reloads for twenty some odd years. And before I became aware that I'm not supposed to shoot cast lead out of a stock barrel I had already shot a thousand or so. If any gun should have malfunctioned it should have been mine. But it's still shooting like the day I bought it.
Furthermore, the weapons team of which I was a member at my last job abused the hell out of their Practical Tactical Glocks, and the only sign of abuse was an occasional guid rod failure. They were few and far between, and clearly the result of torturous abuse.
So, that's my personal experience with Glocks. Over twenty years of beating the crap out of mine, and about 17 years as a fire team member who saw that poor gun treated worse than it ever should be, and I've never even heard of a "kaboom" except on the internet.
You'd have to try pretty hard to treat your gun worse than we did, and we couldn't kill ours. I have to believe that any exploding Glocks had to have been the result of incorrect reloads. Of course that's just me guessing, so take it for what it's worth.
 
I have to agree with the comments regarding out of battery--the deformation of the case shown in the photo is not the smiley from the feed ramp side of the chamber, but rather straight across the case from the top side of the chamber. But, to me it only means the deformation occurred when the gun was out of battery--not necessarily before it locked up, but possibly as it unlocked under extreme pressure.

I also agree with the comment above regarding our loose application of the term 'factory loads' or 'commercial loads'. 'Commercial' to me means nothing except the ammo is loaded, packaged and sold to the public--nothing more. I know I've seen at least one photo of a commercial operation that makes use of an array of progressive presses operated by people. They are handloads--nothing more, nothing less.

What sets these commercial operations apart from the major manufacturers, near as I can tell, is that they don't do pressure testing. I only base that conjecture on the fact that I have never seen any boutique ammo maker specifically advertise compliance with SAAMI recommendations, and I have to think if they'd spent the money to test their ammo, they'd certainly make a point to say so. I could be wrong on this, but plenty of boutique ammo has been pulled down and analyzed, and I've seen the results--in more than one case the loads are way out their beyond SAAMI recommended maximums. I personally can't imagine sending ammo out for sale without testing it myself or better, having it independently tested--routinely.

I have to think handloaded ammo, whether in my garage or in a "manufacturer's" pole barn, generally exhibits wider variation in ballistics than most automated and controlled processing. I believe in all of these failure cases it's a matter of overpressure--what remains is the question of what caused the overpressure. I'm going to go with inadequate process control PLUS working at the top end of the load range for the cartridge. I don't believe brass has too much to do with it--the brass isn't supposed to hold the pressure anyway, the chamber is. Many times I've found my own spent brass cracked the full length of the case (10mm) and yet there was no indication of any other problem when it was last fired (Glock 29, Glock 20, EAA Witness Hunter, aftermarket barrels in the Glocks). Brass that deforms without rupturing is, to me, good brass--that's what you want it to do. Brass with the case head blown off isn't bad brass--it's a bad load. IMO, of course.

My only personal experience with gun failure was a ruptured barrel in my Sig P220...due to a squib I failed to notice. Since then, I've had maybe 5 more squibs (in about 30,000 rds of handloads), and have caught each one before firing a round on top of it--as far as I know. I've taken a couple of steps to try to eliminate the problem, and haven't experienced it in a couple of years now. Hope not to.
 
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This^^^.

I have heard about K frame KB's till I'm blue in the face, weak forcing cone, fractures due to the flat spot / weak spot being the flaw. This is a similar phenomenon to a Glock and lead bullets, not cleaning them after shooting lead, and before running jacketed bullets through them, is a key factor in excessive high pressure spikes. Doing so will only increase the likely hood of issues, which also makes it a user induced KB, IMHO. I can't count the number of times I've heard a person say they shoot jacketed bullets after lead, solely as a means of cleaning the lead out.

GS
 
I have personally seen one Glock KB. The owner was using bulk reloads purchased at a gunshow. This is the only pistol KB amongst my group of shooting buddies, one of which has a g17 with 80k rounds through it, most of which is +p duty ammo.
 
FYI, peak pressure is not always the culprit in KB's. It's the pressure at the time the gun unlocks which is often more important. Basically, it takes a heck of a lot of overpressure to bust a case before the gun unlocks. But heavier bullets and slower powders can cause kb's, even without massive overpressure.

So even if a boutique manufacturer is doing peak pressure testing, they may not be doing adequate testing of their recipes for use in all modern handguns and for the brass they are using.

In this particular case, I am inclined to agree with 1911Tuner. An overcharged case is a likely candidate.

I have seen very similar bulges by the rim of 22LR ammo I shot out of a Phoenix Arms HP22A. I didn't have a kb, but I stopped shooting that ammo.
 
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There are quite a few 1911s out there with folks shooting reloads.

Why don't we hear about 1911 KBs? BHP was mentioned earlier but without much damage incurred...

Maybe this is not the point but one has to wonder about the damage caused by the Glock KBs as well as wonder whether or not the design is subject to these KBs more often whether is was a reloads fault or not.
 
earlthegoat2 said:
There are quite a few 1911s out there with folks shooting reloads.

Why don't we hear about 1911 KBs? BHP was mentioned earlier but without much damage incurred...

Maybe this is not the point but one has to wonder about the damage caused by the Glock KBs as well as wonder whether or not the design is subject to these KBs more often whether is was a reloads fault or not.
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I feel like Googling pictures of 1911 kb's and posting them, but I think we are all capable of that.

I don't know about the shooting events/matches/classes you go to, or what you see at the range, but I encounter far more people shooting Glocks than 1911s, FWIW.
 
I did not say I saw more Glocks than 1911s.

I am well aware that 1911s also KB. For the record I'm not a 1911 fanboy either. In fact there is a Glock 23 on my wife's nightstand. A Glock I bought for her. I just chose a 1911 as an example because they are also a popular pistol.

My inquiry was more so an observation that all pistol makes will have a dangerous reload or some faulty ammo and be subject to a KB situation. Are Glocks inherently more prone to this and when or if they do are they also more prone to being severely damaged by the KB and in turn more prone hurting the shooter?

There is not much more I'm going to say lest I turn this thread into a Glock KB war.
 
GLOOB said:
Glocks are so prevalent at this point that any manufactured ammo that doesn't work in a Glock can be considered defective. :)

Kb's can and do happen with other semiautos, but I can see how Glocks are more prone than some. I have observed that my Glocks have a fairly short lock time on the action compared to some other pistols. This certainly doesn't help. I would be surprised to see an oob kb on an FNX, for instance. The barrel stays locked to the slide for a much longer distance than in a Glock. Stoegar Cougar also has a pretty good lock duration.

I think chamber support is overblown/overstressed in these discussions. If the action is unlocking too soon because of OOB, then chamber support is going to be bad, period. I'm more interested in lock time and how far the gun can fire OOB than chamber support.
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One pistol with a faster cycle time than the Glock is the H&K P7 series and these should kaboom more than they do but the reason they don't is you cannot shoot enough plain/plated lead bullet ammunition through one before the gas port becomes hopelessly fouled and the pistol simply ceases to function.
 
The article's author says that one can see the "glock bulge" in the case, however the case does not show what some call the "glock bulge". 1911Tuner's comments about the case are spot on. The deformation sometimes called the "glock bulge" occurs forward of the case head. The case in the picture shows the actual case head being damaged. That's an entirely different issue than case support.

I'd like to know where the small metal ring in the pictures came from. You can see it propped up against the case in the second picture.

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IMG_1810.jpg

It looks like jacket material and I suspect that it came from the chamber. That suggests to me that there was some sort of buildup at the chamber mouth. Any significant buildup of material at the chamber mouth is likely to increase discharge pressure dramatically.
Lead bullets do not cause ka-booms in Glocks.

About 10 years ago the range supervisor of a large metro department (400+ officers), another officer and myself discussed this issue with GlockUSA. We were told the reason they do not recommend use of lead bullets is because if jacketed bullets are shot before the lead is cleaned out of the barrel it will result in excessive pressure with predictable results.
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The predictable result will be a kaboom. Caused by lead bullets creating a buildup that resulted in an overpressure event. :D

That is one reason that they don't recommend the use of lead bullets but it is not the only one. It is true that following lead bullets with jacketed rounds is a good recipe for disaster, it is also true that lead bullets can result in enough buildup to generate an overpressure event even without the need to follow with a jacketed round.

For more information, read "The Glock in Competition". There's a chapter written by a Forensic Engineer discussing the topic of Glocks and lead bullets in detail. He became interested in the subject after blowing up one of his own pistols.
 
The narrative of "Glock Kaboom" in this thread is a false narrative to attract attention as opposed to being factual to the root cause which appears to be a ammunition problem.
 
Hangingrock said:
The narrative of "Glock Kaboom" in this thread is a false narrative to attract attention as opposed to being factual to the root cause which appears to be a ammunition problem.
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I agree. Disparaging Glocks primarily derives from some people disliking the pistol because it: is not a Browning design, is not a 1911, is not steel framed, is not SA cocked and locked capable, is easier to shoot yourself in the leg when holstering if you are careless, has a polymer frame, is not conventionally attractive, has polymer sights, does not have the same grip angle or changeable grip panels of a 1911, is not an american design, is a european/austria/Hitler's country of birth design, was designed by a Guy named Gaston and that is a weird name and he is known to be a bit of a jerk, is wildly successful in the civilian/police/military market much to the chagrin of its detractors, etc., etc., etc. Oh, it also has been blown-up by bad ammunition and gotten more attention for this than any other pistol because so many people want to disparage it.
 
Disparaging Glocks primarily derives from some people disliking the pistol because it: is not a Browning design,
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It's actually a Browning Saive Luger Borchardt and whoever the engineers were at H&K who first used polymers for the frames design.

And the case head support issue is pretty well-known.

Early one Sunday morning about 10 years ago, I lit out for the range. In my pistol bay of choice, I found several Blazer .40 caliber cases with the Glock bulge and the tell-tale firing pin dent.

And there was one that was blown out.

And there were shards of black plastic scattered around.

And a magazine base plate.

And one other case that was more shredded than blown.

And several sizable, closely-spaced blood drops leading from the shooting area to the parking area...still wet.

I guess that's why the guy I passed on the access road seemed to be in a rush.
 
1911Tuner said:
It's actually a Browning Saive Luger Borchardt and whoever the engineers were at H&K who first used polymers for the frames design.

And the case head support issue is pretty well-known.

Early one Sunday morning about 10 years ago, I lit out for the range. In my pistol bay of choice, I found several Blazer .40 caliber cases with the Glock bulge and the tell-tale firing pin dent.

And there was one that was blown out.

And there were shards of black plastic scattered around.

And a magazine base plate.

And one other case that was more shredded than blown.

And several sizable, closely-spaced blood drops leading from the shooting area to the parking area...still wet.

I guess that's why the guy I passed on the access road seemed to be in a rush.
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As I said it is not a "Browning design". The fact that it has features derived from JMB's and other's work may be another reason some people hate it for stealing the best from other designers and being wildly successful with little original creative effort other than creative marketing. Of course the annoying ease it has at being reliable and sufficiently accurate may be galling to some.:D

I don't doubt the specifics of your story, but we still don't know what the condition of the ammunition was. I am very aware of the case head support issue and its intolerance to out of spec ammunition, especially .40. I often wonder why with 30+ years shooting Glocks beginning with .40s then 9mm, .45 and 10mm using factory ammo and my reloads I still have all my fingers since these pistols have such a reputation for KaBooms.
 
I often wonder why with 30+ years shooting Glocks beginning with .40s then 9mm, .45 and 10mm using factory ammo and my reloads I still have all my fingers since these pistols have such a reputation for KaBooms.
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Largely because the perfect storm of too little head support and a little too much headspace didn't come together in one catastrophic tempest.

The condition of the ammunition was that it was Blazer aluminum...which means that it wasn't reloaded.

I'd be willing to bet that the guy who was in a rush that Sunday had noticed the guppy bellies on his cases before, and chose to ignore it. That happened once with a 1911 owner within 10 minutes after I brought it to his attention.

His slightly haughty response was that the gun had been doing it ever since he bought it and that it was nothing to worry about. 10 minutes later, I heard it let go, followed by his curses and cries of pain at the wood splinters that had impaled his hands. Luckily, he was with a friend who drove him to the ER. I gave'em my number and gathered up their equipment so they could get it later.
 
1911Tuner said:
Largely because the perfect storm of too little head support and a little too much headspace didn't come together in one catastrophic tempest.
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I was being sarcastic and should have labeled it with :rolleyes:. I know perfectly well why I have not experienced a KaBoom. My point is that the "perfect storm" is a very low percentage event.

The condition of the ammunition was that it was Blazer aluminum...which means that it wasn't reloaded.
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Blazer aluminum cased ammunition has been available for decades and I am very familiar with it. We still don't know what was "the condition" of the ammunition he chambered? Unless these KaBoom events are thoroughly documented they are just cues to investigate not proof of anything.
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Blazer aluminum cased ammunition has been available for decades and I am very familiar with it.
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As am I...and I've never had or heard of a problem with it other than the occasional lengthwise case split in one of the magnum revolver calibers. Lots of problems with autopistols that turned out to have excessive headspace...or had suffered one of Dremel Dan's double throwdown ramp'n'throat jobs.

The point?

If the lack of proper head support is designed in...that's half of the perfect storm right outta the gate. We rarely hear of a Glock catastrophic failure in the low pressure .45 Auto caliber. A lot in .40 and lately in 9mm. Among highly trained and keenly observant law enforcement types, that there's whatcha call a clue.

Unless these KaBoom events are thoroughly documented they are just cues to investigate not proof of anything.
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Tough to document the cause when the gun and case is in pieces. It can be done, but it's expensive and usually reserved for bombing investigations.

We still don't know what was "the condition" of the ammunition he chambered?
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The subject of this thread is obviously over pressure, and likely from a double charge of powder. Cases don't let go in the head without a lot of it...not even with bore obstructions. Those generally bulge the barrel, or the barrel splits lengthwise and vents the pressure into the slide...not down into the magazine.

In the case of the blood and plastic that I found that day...all the clues pointed to a case support problem.
 
Bogus reloads. This subject comes back from time to time but it's always jive reloads. Just remember when somebody tells you he just get a new progressive reloader. Try to stay away from their shooting station if you can.
 
I have seen this "jacket ring" twice on two pistols that had cases rupture. The owners neglected tk inform me what type of ammunition they were using when the pistols let go but i figured they were using reloads with plated bullets. For one reason or another a perfect ring of jacket material would plug up the chamber shoulder and cause the round to sit further out of the chamber than normal but not so far out of the chamber to engage the disconnector / connector function. This would lessen case head support. Couple this with an overcharged round and you have a case rupture with catastrophic consequences.

The guys glock frame was destroyed and im not able to clearly make it out but the underside of the slide looks cracked at the corner ofthe breechface near the extractor and striker block.
 
1911Tuner said:
As am I...and I've never had or heard of a problem with it other than the occasional lengthwise case split in one of the magnum revolver calibers. Lots of problems with autopistols that turned out to have excessive headspace...or had suffered one of Dremel Dan's double throwdown ramp'n'throat jobs.

The point?

If the lack of proper head support is designed in...that's half of the perfect storm right outta the gate. We rarely hear of a Glock catastrophic failure in the low pressure .45 Auto caliber. A lot in .40 and lately in 9mm. Among highly trained and keenly observant law enforcement types, that there's whatcha call a clue.

Tough to document the cause when the gun and case is in pieces. It can be done, but it's expensive and usually reserved for bombing investigations.

The subject of this thread is obviously over pressure, and likely from a double charge of powder. Cases don't let go in the head without a lot of it...not even with bore obstructions. Those generally bulge the barrel, or the barrel splits lengthwise and vents the pressure into the slide...not down into the magazine.

In the case of the blood and plastic that I found that day...all the clues pointed to a case support problem.
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1911Tuner,

You can speculate all you want about the event you posted, because regardless of “all the clues pointed to a case support problem” you have no conclusive proof of why the case failed. You may very well be right that your “perfect storm” occurred because of a barrel made with bad headspace and case support but you do not have enough information to rule out other factors singly or in combination causing the KaBoom. Some of those factors could be a badly made cartridge (Blazer like all factory ammo is not perfect), a cartridge with deep bullet setback, fouled chamber, barrel obstruction, and other factors. A far as investigations go, sometimes merely asking the shooter some questions is sufficient and make unnecessary the expense of a professional forensic analysis. For the event you mentioned neither can occur since the pistol and shooter are unavailable. You appear to be much more certain about uncertainties than I am.
 
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