.30-06 Question

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ExAgoradzo

ExAgoradzo

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Background:
I am of the opinion that each rifle fills a niche. This niche is best filled by one or few bullets (b/c you need to sight in different formulas/weights/bullets).

With this in mind, I have a 6.5x55 that I shoot 120gr TTSX out of. I now have a .338 WM that I am planning to load with 225 TTSX. (I also own a .270 but have yet to have 'a' bullet for, prob the 140 grain...)

I am shooting copper because this is CA and because I happen to like these particular brand of bullets (in my Swede, I just got my WM and haven't done any load work at all yet.)

Another line of thought:
So, in the .30 cal spectrum, my list is abbreviated, I know, I think about the .308, .30-06, and .300 WM.

The 150 gr and perhaps 165 gr is best for the .308. I say this because it give enough bc and it doesn't over stuff the case. (Full disclosure, I do not own a .308 or .300 WM.) if I owned a .300 WM I wouldn't shoot less than a 200 because it's seems like it would be a waste to take all that power and put it into a small bullet when the 200 & 220 are begging to be used.

This brings me to the .30-06. The 165 and the 180 class bullets then are left for the .30-06 (I am NOT saying that any of these three calibers can't shoot other weights, I'm telling you my thoughts, but I might be wrong and I'd love a reason why I am...). I'm thinking that the 180 gr class is the way to go with the Gov because in the copper it will act like a larger weight but still not take away case capacity. Plus it will have excellent bc and be somewhat 'midway' between my other hunting rifles.

That was a lot of background. I have a Rem 721 with a 22" barrel made circa 1950.

Any comments on how my thinking was/wasn't clear, any ideas about preferred bullet weight based on my criteria above, why I'm crazy to stay with the TTSX, or anything else will be much appreciated. Any recipes would also be appreciated...

I ask wide open questions here because most give reasoned respectful thought even when they think I'm wrong: I will always listen to those thoughts.

God bless America!
Thanks,
Greg
 
I went through the same mental gymnastics and math many years ago with my 30-06.

I concluded the 165 grain bullet gave the best long range ballistics possible in the caliber.
And I still believe that today.

rc
 
From an economical stand point the .308 Winchester is best brass is cheaper, even when hand loading, way less powder for the same velocity around 5 grains less powder for the same velocity out of the 30-06 with the same bullet (depending on powder). the 30-06 is in the middle, and the 300 wm is just overkill for anything but really long range shooting. thats my 2 cents having all 3. i like the .308 win, very capable of 1000+ yd shots, way less powder and recoil seems manageable without a break or ports. Also since you have a .338 the 300 wm seems covered. so 30-06 or .308 IMO. In my book the 165 grain bullets are 100FPS faster in the 30-06 compared to the .308 win
 
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I like the 155 grainer's for 06, and prefer 165's for the 300 wm..

IMO, I see no disadvantage to using a 300 wm for any N.A. big game, in that, it is by no means over kill. The only difference between any of the cartridges that utilize a .308 projectile, other than brass availability, and powder consumption, is ballistics. Consider this, if you are seeking a cartridge that will produce a flatter trajectory, produce more penetration needed for larger game such as elk or bear at long range, the 300 wm will provide that long range capability better than 30-06 or a .308.

But all 3, and in fact all .308 shooting cartridges are only different and separated by ballistics, all make the same hole, shoot the same projectile. I wouldn't be any less inclined to hunt deer with the 300 wm than I would be to do so with a 30-06 or .308, except that I know I could more effectively reach out with the 300 wm if expecting a long shot.

GS
 
50 someodd years of experience shows me the 165 gr bullet is "THE" bullet for the 3006.
I have never understood those that try to load light bullets in a 30 magnum, that only defeats the purpose of the extra case capacity of the magnums, being able to hurl 200 gr+ bullets at the speed of the 165's and 180's from the 06..But I suppose they have to find some way to deal with the recoil...
 
If you're shooting copper bullets it changes everything.

If I were forced to choose 1 lead bullet weight to shoot in my 308, 30-06, and 300WSM it would be 165/168's. I can use soft 165 bullets where needed for quick expansion and a harder 165 for those situations where more penetration is desired.

But copper bullets behave very differently. Most lead bullets lose 20%-80% of their weight as soon as they impact game so they need to start out much heavier to get adequate penetration. Copper bullets typically lose 0%-3% of their weight at impact so they can be much lighter. Copper is also much longer. The bullet on the left is a 130 gr Barnes TTSX, the bullet on the right is a 180 gr Corelokt.

130ttsxand180corelokt_zps85c8c557.jpg

I load the 130's in my 308 at 3050 fps, the 180 can be loaded in a 300WM at 3050 fps. After impact on game the copper bullet will weigh 130 gr. The 180 will weigh somewhere between 100-130 gr and likely penetrate LESS.

The down side to copper is that it doesn't expand if impact speeds are too slow. If you can't start them at 3000fps or more then drop down in weight till you can. They need to impact at a minimum speed of about 2000 fps with 2200 better.

When using copper I consider 130 gr to be optimal in 308's, I wouldn't go heavier than 150 in 30-06 and leave 165/168's for the magnums. You can load and shoot heavier bullets, but the lighter bullets will give complete penetration and excellent expansion. Going heavier won't offer any advantages at normal ranges and at longer ranges will be too slow to expand reliably.
 
The weight of the rifle is the determinant factor as to which goes hunting.
I have a 7lb (scope,sling, and ammo) .30/06. It's the one that goes hunting. The 10lb .300RUM got carried hunting once in the last 5yrs.

FWIW; I've never owned a .308 that was more accurate than the equivalent .30/06. I've had Remington M700 (circa 1970's production) that was most accurate .308, but wouldn't out-shoot my 1975 vintage Mauser MkX. My Colt Lt.Rifle is 5-shot sub-moa with most any decent powder and bullet 150gr or up. (It's the 7lb rifle w/scope/sling/5-rds ammo). From a bench-rest match grade rifle, the .308 "might" have a slight advantage but in hunting grade rifles, the .308's advantage is the shorter action for a few ounces reduced weight. For machine guns, the advantage is greater, but not so for the "hunting" rifles. Advantage is to the '06 for 165gr and heavier bullets for larger game such as elk, moose, or bears.

You can drop the '06 powder charge 5gr's, but you can't get 5gr more in a .308....
your money, your choice. Mine is the '06 and a 550yd laser range finder...
btw; my '08's are a .260 and 7mm08... and they go "a huntin" even more than the '06 as you typically don't "need" even the '06...
 
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I have a 06 and have been through a couple of bullet iterations.

As a hunter, If I knew then what I know now then I would select a bullet weight and a speed and then fill the calibre around that. My 06 was my first hunting rifle as it was versatile and apparently one could load anything from 130 to 220gr bullets. I believed that this would cater for all my needs having these different loads.

In my 06 the most accurate bullet is a 165gr. SGK, marginally worse is a 180gr. but I load 180gr. Accubonds exclusively as I want a heavier bullet for brush hunting and it packs more wallop.

I also discovered that my .375 with a 300gr. Accubond bullet and my 06 with a 180gr. Accubond have for all intents and purposes identical trajectories out to 300m. This is useful.

I load 130gr. Accubonds in my 6.5X55mm. I recent bought two boxes of 120gr. TTSX but will probably not load them. I was doing some load development in QuickLOAD and realised that with my rifle and barrel length that I could not get the velocity I wanted and be on an accuracy node with the TTSX. I then modelled the 130 and 140gr Accubonds and I could get to the accuracy node required with the 140's with a very slight sacrifice in speed but gains elsewhere. Out of the three the 140gr. was a clear winner for me as a hunter.
 
Thank you for the thoughtful responses!

Re: copper. I am aware that 'less is more' with copper. I was thinking about the 180 in copper because I figured I'd never get a bigger gun, but this 338 WM fell into my lap just before Christmas, I won't say how much I paid, but the guy couldn't shoot it anymore and he too pity on me!

Back to the -06... So, I figured that the 165-180 would cover anything I'm likely to shoot (Im not a good enough shooter to take anything beyond 300 yards, currently with my Swede and my .270 I hit the 254 yard target enough to feel confident with those guns at that distance...I don't have the time or money to get proficient beyond that at this point in my life. So the 165-180 ought to open fine. But, now that I do have my 338, I could see myself going lighter for a faster bullet...

With all the love here for the 165 (love I've seen elsewhere as well), what would the 'copper equivalent' be? The 130?

Thanks again guys,
Greg
 
gamestalker said:
I like the 155 grainer's for 06, and prefer 165's for the 300 wm..

IMO, I see no disadvantage to using a 300 wm for any N.A. big game, in that, it is by no means over kill. The only difference between any of the cartridges that utilize a .308 projectile, other than brass availability, and powder consumption, is ballistics. Consider this, if you are seeking a cartridge that will produce a flatter trajectory, produce more penetration needed for larger game such as elk or bear at long range, the 300 wm will provide that long range capability better than 30-06 or a .308.

But all 3, and in fact all .308 shooting cartridges are only different and separated by ballistics, all make the same hole, shoot the same projectile. I wouldn't be any less inclined to hunt deer with the 300 wm than I would be to do so with a 30-06 or .308, except that I know I could more effectively reach out with the 300 wm if expecting a long shot.

GS
Click to expand...
Those are some good points but I feel differently. Sure one of the 300 Magnums will reach out longer but Bear and Elk rarely are in the open so long shots on them are rare. If the 30-06 isn't the right rifle in that case maybe a large caliber levergun is. That leaves Deer and Goats, in that case I would rather use a 6.5mm or .270 Win if a longer flatter shot is expected. I think that would be a better choice than one of the 300 Magnums.
 
gamestalker said:
I like the 155 grainer's for 06, and prefer 165's for the 300 wm..

IMO, I see no disadvantage to using a 300 wm for any N.A. big game, in that, it is by no means over kill. The only difference between any of the cartridges that utilize a .308 projectile, other than brass availability, and powder consumption, is ballistics. Consider this, if you are seeking a cartridge that will produce a flatter trajectory, produce more penetration needed for larger game such as elk or bear at long range, the 300 wm will provide that long range capability better than 30-06 or a .308.

But all 3, and in fact all .308 shooting cartridges are only different and separated by ballistics, all make the same hole, shoot the same projectile. I wouldn't be any less inclined to hunt deer with the 300 wm than I would be to do so with a 30-06 or .308, except that I know I could more effectively reach out with the 300 wm if expecting a long shot.

GS
Click to expand...
I did not mean overkill as a whole but more of filling the gap he was looking for in between the 6.5 and 338. Although i have seen lots of factory 300 wm go in and out of deer without proper expansion due to them being made for larger animals such as bear or moose. so hand loading would be required for that smaller sized or medium game. Still in North America the .308 Win is capable of ethical shots out to 400-500 yards without a problem most hunting situations will not allow for those kind of shots anyways. I'm not bashing on the 30-06 i love that AMERICAN round but for 100 fps extra over the .308 from a common sense stand point there is no comparison, the .308 is more economical and there is really no field noticeable ballistics gain.
 
The .308 and .30-06 are ballistically identical with like bullets. Both really like 165 grain hunting bullets(that do not need to be premium bullets like Barnes bullets.) with IMR4064(that's just a personal preference my '03A4 likes, not the only powder in town.). A 165 out of either will kill any game in North America. Big bears included.
Nothing with the word magnum in its name will do anything no non-magnum cartridge will not. Magnum rifle cartridges are really just the most successful marketing campaign in history.
 
I really liked JMR40's reply. And agree with it wholeheartedly. However, most times when I load for my '06's, I'm stuffing a 165 grain bullets in them. I have found them to just work good. And, I'm no long rang shooter. But, when I have popped off at the longer ranges, I am more accurate with the 165's over the 150's.

I'm currently working on a load or 180 grain partitions. Lord willing, I'll introduce some of those to an elk or two before I'm pushing up daisy's.

I read a post above and will say this about the 308 and 30/06 debate. If you get out of the 150-165 grain arena, the 308 loses ground to the bigger '06 real quick. Get into the 180 grain area and the '06 can be very close to the 300 WM with te right powder. So, if you are looking to feel a niche, it is definitely in the 165-180 grain ball park for the '06 to really shine and find a comfortable place for it to be the best choice hands down. But, I'd go to the 165 TSX to do it if I could only use copper bullets. God Bless
 
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Yes WV,
That's the conclusion I am coming to as well. Since I'm no long range guy, taking into account the caution against allowing the copper fly too slowly, I'm leaning towards the 168's in the Barnes. I think based on this discussion and the other research I've done this will be a good in-between my 120 and my 225 grain bullets in 6.5 & .338 respectively.

This never was meant to be a debate between the .06 and the .308 or the .300 WM for that matter. I was using those calibers as the foil for laying out my thinking on the .308 diameter bullet. Obviously most here understood that and I think my thinking was validated by some of the comments. It always feels good to be understood. I'd be happy to take any rifle in either of those two calibers, but I'm unlikely to buy either now...nor will I replace my FIL's Remington...

Thanks again for the comments. I'm going to start with Barnes' own recipe: if y'all have any modifications or ideas other than that I'd be happy to listen.

Greg
 
I also like jmr40's response. In my long experience with the 30-06 I have shot big game animals with it using bullets from 110 grains to 180. The 110 was an accident (Wrong loads in the magazine) that worked out fine. I've used all the other weights (125s, 130s, 150s,165sand 180s on purpose at various times with excellent results.....and I decided that the 165 is the "perfect" compromise in conventional bullets. With all copper things change. Lighter makes sense. I will say that my experience has been that most of our debates about various bullet weights are entertaining but largely a chasing after wind. Hardly anyone should shoot at game at distances over 300 yards. Most game is taken at under 100 yds. With good hits most any game bullet will do the job. Bad hits suck whatever you are using.
 
With copper bullets in a 30-06 it'd be 150's for everything. Driven at 2900-3000 fps they will outperfrom lead 180's on larger game and still not be overkill on deer. Recoil isn't bad. They are still fast enough to give good expansion

Copper 165's or 180's are best used on REALLY big stuff up close. If I were poking around in the Alaska bush where 1,000 lb brown bear were located a 180 gr copper bullet in a 30-06 would be a serious contender.
 
Copper bullets retain almost 100% of there weight. I have a 30-06 and hunt with 110 grain ttsx bullets. There speed is 3500-3600 fps according to barnes data. So they shoot flatter than any other weight until about 400 yards.
 
Arch, I totally get your take on elk and bear, but there are exceptions. Arizona is a hunting world all it's own. In my neck of the woods, and hunting by means of spot and stalk, as we do on these massive large public lands, a glassed up bear or elk can easily present you with no choice but to settle for a 400 or 500 yd. shot, something that isn't practical for an ill prepared individual.

As for bear hunting, we hunt them by calling, and using tripod glass to pick them up in massive canyons with slopes that run for 1500 yards or more. the bear I have personally hunted have rarely afforded a shot under 300 yds.. Years back we baited them, but that is gone forever here. And I have never been the type to enjoy running them down with dogs, no fun in that for me.

And elk is no better, with shots sometimes in excess of 500 yds., being that there is no other way to close the distance, one must be using a top end range finder, know their optics and loads like the back of their hand, and use a top end field shooting system, like a Caldwell tripod style field rest. Shooting sticks are so, so for 300 yds. or less, but an elk at 500+ requires having all your ducks in a row, so too speak.

As guides, and as most guides out here, we always set our clients up with, or make sure they are set up for the flattest shooting system possible. But in all honesty, we won't even let a client use the 06 for elk or bear. It's just not the right combination for shots ranging that far. We'll let the .270 in the game if everything is set up right, but we prefer they go 7 mag. or 300 win..

GS
 
"Won't even let the client use the 06 for elk or bear...."

There is no danger of me trying to book a hunt with you. If I did we might have a conflict.
 
I wouldn't go heavier than 150 in 30-06 and leave 165/168's for the magnums. You can load and shoot heavier bullets, but the lighter bullets will give complete penetration and excellent expansion. Going heavier won't offer any advantages at normal ranges and at longer ranges will be too slow to expand reliably.
Click to expand...

What jmr40 said here is about as good as it gets for all copper bullets. Another thing to consider with them is their length, which can give issues with stability even with the mid weights due to possible lower velocity loads. Sometimes those long copper pills get a bit squirrely with a bit too slow of a twist or velocity to drive them fast enough. I have put quite a few through paper at weird angles simply trying them out.

That said, with the .308 or the 30-06 in a 1-10 twist the 165 would be the absolute heaviest I would try due to velocity issues on the heavier ones. The 130gr or 150gr TSX or TTSX pick your flavor you will get the best overall performance. I shot quite a few of the 130gr TTSX in my .308 simply due to I had them and they shot excellent. In the past though I ran up to the 165gr Original X bullets out of my 06's and never had an issue with anything other than a bit of fouling. That was back before the concept of the TTSX came into being and nowadays working through it all over again I would most likely simply put the 130's to task and forget about the rest.
 
I have as well experienced issues with the heavier solids, they have significantly longer profiles, and at nominal velocities they are difficult to stabilize.

GS
 
my go to 06 uses 150s because they just shot better in it but if I had to pick one bullet weight as ideal it would be the 165s. No need for fancy smancy bullets in the good old o6. A cup and core 165 will take care of any game im going hunting with an 06
 
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