SBR Engraving and Abbreviation

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smovlov

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I will be engraving a lower receiver for a SBR. Would it be OK as an individual to put my first initial and last name along with the city and state abbreviation? For example:

J. Smith
Anyplace, FL

My first name and last name together would be 16 letters total. Id like to shorten it so it would take up less space.
 
Im no lawyer so take this for what it is:

I just looked at one of my Surplus Ammo and Arms lowers, they engraved it

SAA
Tacoma WA

But, they are a company and not an individual so not sure how that applies
 
type up your form 1 sample paperwork and send a letter to nfa branch detailing what you want to do. get it in writing before you do it. ask if you can abbreviate. that way your covered.ask if you need to put the abbreviated engraving noted on form.just cya info
on form one, type it in full
 
All of this is one of the considerations for what you name a trust (or in fact, if you are happy as an individual registrant/maker or if you should have a trust at all).


Example: "The John and Mary-Jane Go Skipping Rope Together Trust" isn't going to engrave well. And I, for sure, and *never* going to engrave my actual name on anything, ever, *especially* a lower (see more on that below).

Something to think about.



My trust name, on the other hand, is "In God We", so my engraving is "In God We Trust". Good trust names are easy to engrave.


Further offering that it's silly, in my opinion, to engrave a LOWER for your SBR. Engrave the BARREL and you have it correctly engraved *when assembled as a SBR* and it's unmarked *when not assembled as a SBR*. I vibro-engrave my barrels on the bottom and it's perfectly legal in every respect. Why "deface" your lower? The only "question" is if you can engrave your barrel to be covered over by a handguard. Taking it as an example that many old S&W revolvers have their serial number under the grips where you need tools to access the number, and after a casual conversation with my local BATFE branch, *I* am comfortable with engraving my markings under the handguard. *Your* actual mileage may vary depending on your level of paranoia that the black-clad evil BATFE agents might come to your house in the middle of the night to check your engravings... <yawn>...


BTW if you ever find a used upper at a gunshow with the bottom of the barrel vibro-engraved "In God We Trust", and "MKE, WI" it's the one that was "borrowed" from me. Just sayin...


Quick question as a slight segue from the OP: Has *anyone* ever had their engravings officially scrutinized by a LEO who actually knew what he was looking at? Has anyone ever had their engravings looked at by anyone in authority at all?



Willie

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Quick question as a slight segue from the OP: Has *anyone* ever had their engravings officially scrutinized by a LEO who actually knew what he was looking at? Has anyone ever had their engravings looked at by anyone in authority at all?

Never had my forms looked at by anyone after they've been approved, and I've had NFA items since the early 80's. But these "technical" errors could make your life miserable should you need to be interacting with them for some other reason.
 
Quick question as a slight segue from the OP: Has *anyone* ever had their engravings officially scrutinized by a LEO who actually knew what he was looking at? Has anyone ever had their engravings looked at by anyone in authority at all?

Id like to hear from people about this too...

I never really thought about engraving the barrel. I was considering doing the marks next to the trigger on the underside of the receiver.
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I also understand what you're saying about engraving your own name in the receiver... What does it cost to set up a trust?

The only thing that I saw in section 479.102 about possibly being able to cover the markings is this:
(c) The Director may authorize other means of identification upon receipt of a letter application from you, submitted in duplicate, showing that such other identification is reasonable and will not hinder the effective administration of this part.

I understand that you are comfortable with it. I think I need to have a chat with the ATF to see what my options are. What is the best way of contacting them? Phone? Email?
 
^^ No clue. I had other business with the local branch and just had a casual conversation. The 479.102 regards making marks that are not engraved with the size and depth requirements generally met. It has nothing to do with where you place adequately sized markings of adequate depth. Adequate markings can be done with a vibroengraver, and the easy way to make your hand-engraved markings not stand out like a sore thumb is to place them under the handguard of an AR.

The truth is that if it's permanently identifiable as to the maker, you've done your job, so I wouldn't obsess over it.

Note that the (understaffed and very busy) BATFE has lots of other things to worry about other than the engraving on your personal NFA project. Really. And nobody knows what the penalty "might" be, even in the most extreme case of them getting a case of the ass for you. Further noting that getting this on their plate would be only the result of buffoonery on your part well beyond the norm. I defy anyone to present an actual case of criminal prosecution for the style, placement, or type of markings placed on a legally made SBR. Anyone? Deafening silence is the answer.


So:

The bottom line is that *nobody* really is in the business of actually nit-picking these rules (which is what they are, not codified in any law), and if you can show a good faith effort to have complied you're not likely to be hassled even in the extremely unlikely case that anyone in authority even bothered to look. Thinking that the US`Attorney General would literally make a federal case out of the fact that your markings are under the handguard versus on the barrel ahead of the handguard is really pretty magical thinking. And to begin that, someone would need to refer a case to them for prosecution to begin with. Who in the world would do that? And why? Trust me, if they get to that, they already have 100 other things they are indicting you for. And if any law enforcement agency referred a case to the AG for simply marking your SBR under the handguard as opposed to being on the barrel ahead of the handguard (breaking what law?), the AG would laugh them out of the office, as there's no way to win a case like that in court. Trust old Willie: You're not that important to them. No federal prosecutor is going to seek an indictment (good luck with the grand jury even bothering to hand up an indictment for that), and then go to a jury trial over your SBR's markings being under the handguard, and nobody else has the jurisdiction to even worry about it. Your local state AG doesn't have the jurisdiction... so "Good Luck" to a local-yokel cop trying to make a case. As we used to say in NJ when I lived there: "Fuhgedaboutit"... and sleep well.


Now: If you were an 07 FFL with a Class 3 SOT manufacturing hundreds of machineguns for resale to police and military forces, and you were being given site inspections by the BATFE for compliance, and you were wanting to somehow hide your makers markings under the handguard (and why would you at that point?), you would be wise to seek a BATFE opinion. As an individual making a SBR on a Form 1? <yawn>... nobody truly cares where you engrave it, and there's no real mechanism to "punish" you.

Make a good faith effort and relax.


The above paragraphs are written with the concept of engraving on the barrel under the handguard, which I do for the simple reason that my hand engraved markings done with my Sears & Roebuck vibro-engraver look like crap and I want to hide them. For engraving the barrel ahead of the handguard it's much clearer: Moving to that, there is absolutely no reason not to mark the barrel (or upper) and not the receiver. There are literally *millions* of rifles and pistols with the manufacturers marks on the slide or the barrel, not the frame, and it's well accepted that this is just fine. Go to uour gunsafe, grab any semi-auto pistol you have, and where are the markings? On the slide? "Colt Patent Firearms, Hartford CT" on the slide is on what I just looked at. Grab your bolt action rifle. Bet there are makers markings and their address on the barrel, not the receiver. Your AR isn't any different. YOU are only making the AR a NFA item when the barrel assembly is installed. Mark that component and, well.... fuhgedaboutit.. Don't deface a lower that will live on as a non-NFA lower for decades after you're done playing with it.


It always seems that when we discuss NFA stuff someone comes up with "But there's a $10,000 fine and 10 years in jail for <insert the offense here>. To which, in the case of "where should I mark my SBR" I say "Uhh.... <yawn again>... No".



Willie

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i didn't actually think about it when i did a form 1 and put my entire first, middle, last name and suffix (taliv = my initials... i'm the fourth) all of which are pretty long. so that's what i had to engrave on the lower. oops

in any event, to anecdotally answer Willie's question, I've never even had anyone ask to see my forms, much less the engraving. and i've never heard of any LEO asking.
 
^^

What could be better than "In God We Trust" engraved under the handguard?


I bet "Theaddeaus Alsphonso Leonidines the Fourth" (Taliv) would engrave under a handguard just fine too ... ;-)


Willie

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I agree with Willie. I have a .22 Hornet M4 H&R U S survival rifle that I acquired years ago with a sleeve welded onto the barrel, so it was legal. I decided last year to SBR it and acquired a correct short barrel. I had the new short barrel engraved with my name and address, so I can switch the longer legal barrel back any time I want and it's no longer an SBR, and the receiver is unmarked.
 
Quick question as a slight segue from the OP: Has *anyone* ever had their engravings officially scrutinized by a LEO who actually knew what he was looking at? Has anyone ever had their engravings looked at by anyone in authority at all?



Willie

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I would suspect that if anyone is looking that closely at your engraving, the engraving is likely the LEAST of your worries....
 
i didn't actually think about it when i did a form 1 and put my entire first, middle, last name

Same, and I spelled out 'revocable living trust'. I shouldn't have named my trust that way, because then I felt I had to put the whoooooooole thing on the receiver so it's just ridiculously long now, limiting location options
 
I can comfortably engrave Elkins Firearm Trust on the part of a 10" barrel that sticks out beyond a 7" free float hand guard with a Dremel tool. I'm not quite sure how I'm going to do my 10" 10/22. I've had the stamp for months and haven't even sent the barrel off to be threaded yet.
 
I can comfortably engrave Elkins Firearm Trust on the part of a 10" barrel that sticks out beyond a 7" free float hand guard with a Dremel tool. I'm not quite sure how I'm going to do my 10" 10/22. I've had the stamp for months and haven't even sent the barrel off to be threaded yet.

The barrel counts as the receiver on those firearms? What? :confused:

Are you sure you are doing this all correctly?
 
^^. Read the entire thread. There's nothing requiring you to place the makers name and address on the receiver. It needs to be on a major component: On a SBR doing the barrel makes perfect sense.

Willie

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^^. Read the entire thread. There's nothing requiring you to place the makers name and address on the receiver. It needs to be on a major component: On a SBR doing the barrel makes perfect sense.

Willie

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That is interesting, but I am personally a bit underwhelmed with the logic of "nobody cares" and "make a good faith effort [and then trust the BATFE to honor it, should the need arise]
 
The barrel counts as the receiver on those firearms? What? :confused:

Are you sure you are doing this all correctly?
Only the serial number must be on the receiver (and maybe the manufacturer, I'm too lazy to go look it up again). Caliber, SBR maker and location can also be on the barrel if so desired.

Most of the factory rifles I'm familiar with have the caliber engraved on the barrel.
 
I'm a bit different, and am considering SBR of a TC Contender. Where in the heck can I put an engraving at on that bugger? I want to put that one on the frame so I don't have to stamp a bunch of barrels...and that's also a consideration for AR guys too who intend to use different uppers. I have no issue with conspicuous or inconspicuous, just where...and NO, I'm not covering up the puddy-tat to do it.
 
^ engrave the stock. When it's plugged in you have a SBR and when it's off you don't. Markings move with the device making it a SBR when it's configured like that.

As for multiple uppers for AR's, vibro engraving barrel bottoms is free.


Willie

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While looking this one over found this very interesting post, and the accompanying citation:

http://www.guntrustlawyer.com/2010/03/batfe-engraving-requirements-f.html

Page 92 of ATF 5300.4 in 27 CFR 479.102 clearly says,

the engraving can be on the "frame" "receiver" or "barrel."

No mention in that part of the regulation is made on the viability (ie under a handguard) of the marking either. It just can't be easily obliterated, and must be .003 inches deep and larger than 1/16 inch font.

Read it yourself. You might come to a different interpretation.

Free legal advice is worth what you pay for it. (Ie. nothing). Check it out for yourself.
 
i didn't actually think about it when i did a form 1 and put my entire first, middle, last name and suffix (taliv = my initials... i'm the fourth) all of which are pretty long. so that's what i had to engrave on the lower. oops


i did a fill in the blanks style trust and wasn't paying attention. It told me I could change the name later but that turned out to be a lie. MY trust is now this long:
###### ####### ### trust. (first, middle and last name)

It has been an issue to engrave before. I converted the adobe trust to a word document and I may create another one with just my 3 initials.

A guy locally does my engraving for $35, he can only do it on the side of the mag well. Lowers are currently $50-60. I really don't care too much about ruining the value of something that costs $50.

IF you read the form 1's and 4's it says something like "must be provided upon request by any ATF officer" or something similar. A lawyer friend of mine says he interprets that as you can tell a city, county or state officer to Pee off. I don't know that I would but I see no reason why I would ever be in that situation aside from a shooting incident which that will be the LEAST of my concerns.

I live in FL so we are not obligated to warn an officer we have guns in the car. I am certainly not volunteering "I have a short barreled, suppressed AR" in my trunk.
 
When I built my SBR in 2008, this is what I went by as far as what I had engraved on my lower.
Mine is on a Form 1, not a trust.

From the AFT Handbook at that time.

7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on
the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they
must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms
manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch.
The additional information includes:
(1) The model, if such designation has been made;
(2) The caliber or gauge;
(3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and
(4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place
of business.122

I had Orion engrave my first and middle initial with my complete last name, city and state.

If that is incorrect by todays standards, it is what it is. I've never had anyone ask to check my SBR.
 
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I spoke to the NFA branch directly on the phone.
They said the ONLY thing you can abbreviate is the state. It must be the two letter abbreviation.

You CANNOT abbreviate revocable Living trust into RLT or living trust into LT as some on other forums said I could or said they did.

This was straight out of the horses mouth. I choose to err on the side of caution and take their word for it.
 
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