Anyone convert a SxS to a double rifle?

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Well there have been a few over and under "double" rifles made already. Savage model 24 comes to mind. If you can have a 30-30 over 12 GA rifled or 30-06 over 20 GA then up to 30-06 over and under should work OK I would think. Lock work would be OK as well. I have several of these now in different factory configurations.

A double rifle does NOT consist of a rifle/shotgun, those are combination guns... Double rifles have BOTH bbls chambered for rifle cartridges...

DM
 
V M Starr did a conversion of a double shotgun to double rifle many years ago. He sleeved the 12 bore down to 45-70 and cut the barrels to 25 inches. It was a heavy brute but he regulated it to 80 yards with a 330 grain bullet. It was an accurate but heavy rifle.

The beauty of the rifles used in India and Africa was they were purpose built as rifles and as such were balanced and regulated for the cartridge. The only simialrity a converted shotgun has to a double rifle is they both have two barrels.

Kevin
 
off topic

Tark:
PeteD , I believe Hemingway's actual quote was: "There are only three true sports; Bull fighting, automobile racing and hunting. All of the others are merely activities."

Could be. I have seen quite a few variations though not that one. Whether it was actually from Papa is also in question. I went with the most common rendition.
Pete
 
Also....the idea that the paths of the bullets fired from each barrel will cross at a certain distance is, iirc, flawed. if it were true then the rifle would be essentially useless after the intersection. The barrels, properly regulated should keep the trajectories parallel.

Well, not quite useless.
While I agree with Ray Ordorica that they ought to be regulated parallel, if they are set to converge at a reasonable range, they will be usable well beyond that.

Let's say your barrels were an inch apart, center to center, at the muzzle and regulated to shoot together at 100 yards. Then they will be back an inch apart at 200 yards, which I doubt you can see over open sights.
 
Well, not quite useless.
While I agree with Ray Ordorica that they ought to be regulated parallel, if they are set to converge at a reasonable range, they will be usable well beyond that.

Let's say your barrels were an inch apart, center to center, at the muzzle and regulated to shoot together at 100 yards. Then they will be back an inch apart at 200 yards, which I doubt you can see over open sights.

....eggzactly....

So we won't see any doubles at a benchrest competition but for hunting and such it's a system that works for many folks when it's done well.
 
The proper regulation of a DR is to have the bbls shoot apart the distance they are at the muzzle.

If the bbls are 1" apart at the "muzzle", the centers of the groups of both bbls, should also be an inch apart at what ever distance you are shooting.

This is what the makers of quality doubles (Chapuis, Searcy, Heym ect.) strive for and it's the way I've always regulated DR's too...

This is how you get a DR to be more than a 100 yard hunting gun!

DM
 
For an inexpensive double gun Baikal made a 20Ga coach gun that was also made under the Remington Spartan brand for several years. Almost all of these will meet the English standard for doubles of 4 shots (2R&2L) into four inches at fifty yards with the cheap Remington or Winchester Foster style slugs.
These guns have screw in choke tubes and I found that IC in both barrels gives the best accuracy useable on deer size game out to 75 yards.
Of the eight I have owned only one wouldn't achieve this. A friend of mine has made up three poor mans double rifles with a three for three success rate.
Has to do with the manner and repeatability with which they are laid up at the factory with minor factor of the weight of the barrels vs projectile weight.
I discovered this purely by accident. The ability to have interchangeable chokes makes these highly utilitarian. Still available on gunbroker, where I've bought all but two of mine, for three to four hundred in new or like new shape.
 
And your point in stating that was?????

My reference to poor man's double rifle was meant to reference the appearance, cost and addition of rifle sights.

I took the OP to mean that he was looking for an inexpensive way to enjoy the flavor of shooting a single projectile from each of two tubes mounted side by side and having them strike the target close together at hunting ranges.

I didn't mean to offend the elite.
 
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And your point in stating that was?????

My reference to poor man's double rifle was meant to reference the appearance, cost and addition of rifle sights.

I took the OP to mean that he was looking for an inexpensive way to enjoy the flavor of shooting a single projectile from each of two tubes mounted side by side and having them strike the target close together at hunting ranges.

I didn't mean to offend the elite.

My point is/was, the OP asked about making a "double rifle" and no one has to be "elite" to figure that out...it just takes a little reading and comprehension skills. lol

DM
 
You might want to go back and re-read the original post in it's entirety. I just might not be the one having a comprehension problem.

You might also want to look at post#5 by the OP.
 
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sxs

For an inexpensive double gun Baikal made a 20Ga coach gun that was also made under the Remington Spartan brand for several years. Almost all of these will meet the English standard for doubles of 4 shots (2R&2L) into four inches at fifty yards with the cheap Remington or Winchester Foster style slugs.

Only the 20 gauge? I have an IZH-43 in 12 gauge that I would try.
 
Anybody ever see barrel inserts that are rifled? The ones I have seen an the ones linked earlier in the thread make no mention of rifling. If that's the case then I for sure am looking for cheap takeoff barrels to turn and fit. Regulation would be of less consideration than tumble.
 
Pete D

Unfortunately, due to the weight and the lay up of the 12Ga, slugs will not work and under the best combination I tried the barrels shot apart from each other about 16in at 25yds.
 
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DM~ I was referring to using a savage 24 to produce a O/U double rifle using a different custom fabricated double barrel assembly. Reasoning that the receiver would be strong enough for two 30-06 barrels or something near that.;)
 
10Q

Willie: Thanks for those links. Very nice. I was not able to get a sense of cost at the manufacturers sites. The auction site.....prices were high (asking 550 Euro/$637 USD for a Keller-Simman .30-30 insert.) Still way less expensive than a "real" double rifle.

Pete
 
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Here is the issue with converting a double barrel shotgun into a rifle. A side by side shotgun does not shoot straight ahead. The barrels are set in a position so the point of impact crosses at around 50 yards (YMMV). Cast off may not benefit a rifle shooter.
 
A friend read too many safari stories and got the bug.
First, he tried slugs out of a double shotgun. I don't remember if we ever found all the hits on a target. But that just fired him up all the more and he bought an elderly Webley .450 BPE with steel barrels and Alex Henry rifling. It is about a 60 yard gun with any load he can devise; it is tough to find 270 grain copper tube bullets like it is probably regulated for.
 

"Willie: Thanks for those links. Very nice. I was not able to get a sense of cost at the manufacturers sites."



There's a price spread, with short ones costing less and the long ones more, and with the barrel quality, caliber, and other finishing features reflected too. A generic short one might be $500, while a long one with a Lothar Walther barrel might run up to $2000. Bear in mind that these are often placed into top quality shotguns and the owners expect 1/2 MOA out of them after the inserts are installed.

Frankonia is a large retailer of shooting accessories, etc., in Germany and has a sales page where you can see a few wit prices. This is only a very tiny sample of what can be bought.

http://www.frankonia.de/Einstecklauf/Ansicht.html?Artikelnummer=96051


K+S is my go-to supplier. This is a good staring place:

http://www.einstecklauf.de/classic.html

Just take a look as the calibers offered. Then click on the links at the top of the page and look at their other product lines. Amazing stuff.


The German paradigm is that a hunter can buy ONE weapon for his hunting needs. Very often he either buys an interchangable barrel system where he can plug and play barrel assemblies onto one receiver, or buys a Drilling or combination gun. Sticking to the simple combination gun, in todays marketplace these are generally a shotgun over a rifle barrel. 12 gauge and say 9.2x72, which is roughly equal to any of the good .35 caliber centerfire rifle calibers. The hunter will then buy an Einsteklauf for the shotgun barrel in a smaller caliber cartridge, say... 5.56mm x ? for shooting small game, etc. This might be rimfire (.22 Mag is very popular there), or might be a .22 centerfire of some sort.

Going further, depending on his hunting habits, he "might" get his combination gun in something smaller, like 16 gauge and 5.56mm. But what about that hunt where he wants to take larger game? Well, he buys an Einsteklauf in some large caliber rifle cartridge for his shotgun barrel and goes hunting. Might be .30-06, might be 9.2x74, etc. he expects this adapter to shoot as well as the other rifle barrel, and he expects to be able to adjust ot so that both barrels shoot to the same point using a scope. These are not the el-cheapo inserts that we see here. He's probobly got a Zeiss or Kahles scope and he wants the setup to *shoot* using the insert just like it does without.

A pair of them, obviously, placed into a suitable host shotgun with decent sights *is* converting a shotgun to a very capable double rifle.

In my case, I like Drillings. Their advantages to a hunter are manifest. Double 16 guage with a 8x57JRS rifle barrel gives you great upland game shooting as well as a great deer cartridge. My Sauer shoots it's left barrel to point of aim of the rifle barrel using Brenneke slugs, and I've got a claw mount Kahles scope on top. Want to hunt deer? Load up rifle, slug in the left and buckshot in the right. Or... stick an Einsteklauf in the right and have rifle, slug, and a barrel waiting for that squirrel that's been chattering at you all day while you're in your tree stand. At the end of the day pop him and you can at least have a sterw while you contemplate tomorrow. Headed out for bear? Well... drop a 9.2x74 Einsteklauf in the right barrel, a slug in the left, and a nice hollow point in the 8x57 and press on. Weight? Just at about 7.5 pounds *with scope*.


You can build up a VERY nice system using these and a *suitable* host shotgun. Want a nice one? Start off with a nice old used prewar Sauer shotgun at about $800, add one or two einsteklauf tubes, be sensible about the sights you add, and you've got a VERY VERY fine system.

The one feature that Drillings have that the shotguns don't is that the selector for rifle/shotgun (between rifle and the left barrel) is a tang mounted slide that looks like a tank mounted shotgun safety. It isn't... it's a selector. Push forward and two things happen: You select rifle and amazingly enough the rear sight pops up out of a recess where you never even noticed it before. Slide it back and the sight vanishes. Magic. Good prewar German Drillings can still be had for about $2000 if you search a bit. The last one I bought (three weeks ago) was a Sauer in 16 guage and 9.2x72, with a claw mounted Kahles Helia variable scope. Condition NRA antique very good. Price? $1900. The one before that was a Sauer 16 guage and 8x57JRS with a claw mounted postwar Kahles fixed power 4, with a .22 mag einsteklauf thrown in to make the deal. It was $3200 complete with 2 boxes of loaded ammo and 3 boxes of once fired brass. Not cheap, but... superb.

The only challenge I see when taking a suitable shotgun (I'd personally use a prewar Sauer 16 guage) as a host is putting on pleasing and functional sights. Solve that, add a pair of einsteklauf's and you would have a beauty.



Willie
 
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DM~ I was referring to using a savage 24 to produce a O/U double rifle using a different custom fabricated double barrel assembly. Reasoning that the receiver would be strong enough for two 30-06 barrels or something near that.;)

I guess "anything" can be made to work, but any double worth having would have at least TWO hammers, not "one" that you would have to re-cock for the second shot.

For all the trouble it would be to make up a set of bbls, why not start out with something a bit better than a 24??

Buying a Valmet 412 would make a very nice DR, IF you could live with an O/U... That way you can have shot bbls and DR bbls on the same action... They are very good guns.

NO QUESTION about it, the cheapest half decent S&S DR that ACTUALLY WORKS, is the Baikal! That way, you won't even have to put up with a garage cobble job that "almost" works...

Best part is, when you get tired of it, you will get most if not all of your money back.

BTW, I don't think the 24 would last long, chambered in 30-06.

DM
 
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Depends on how inexpensive one would want to go I guess. Personally I would like a MAG fed rifle anyway. With a good lever or bolt action one can work it and be ready for a follow up shot by the time you regain the sight picture if you practice a bit. What you propose would be miles ahead of where I was going but the cost is also going to be up there as well. Seriously, you have to pay a premium for quality no way around it.
 
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