Black Powder for reduced 30-06 loads.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Jesus Is Lord

Member
Joined
Nov 7, 2014
Messages
24
Location
Ludington, MI
I am trying to get my 30-06 to shoot sub-sonic. But I want to do it safely. I know smokeless powder can cause dangerous pressure spikes. Black powder is better in that it takes up much more room in the case and is less powerful. Is this a really bad idea or will it work but just burn dirtier.
 
Bad Idea.

IMR Trail Boss can load sub-Sonic safely till who laid the chunk with no black powder fouling to deal with.

http://www.imrpowder.com/PDF/Trail-Boss-data.pdf

There are plenty of other smokeless powders that will do as well.
However, sub-sonic is best done with lead bullets to reduce bore friction and have less chance of sticking a bullet or jacket in the bore.

Suggest you buy a Lyman #49 load manual or Cast Bullet Handbook and do some looking.

rc
 
Given the case capacity of the 06 I really doubt that blackpowder would give you subsonic, matter of fact the velocity might actually surprise you some.
However there are a number of powders that will get you close to subsonic, unique, bludot, 2400 and some others.
Grab up a copy of the Lyman 49th manual, and look at those loads.
You also might want to go over to the ASSRA forums and ask your question, there's probably some of those guys that shoot that type of load in various shooting matches.
Heavy cast bullets will be the ticket to going subsonic.
 
I agree, there are plenty of good options for subsonic 30-06 loads. Since Hodgdon decided to discontinue SR4759 they are telling us to use Trail Boss instead. Both will do the job and so will Red Dot. If you use the Hodgdon H4895 reduced load formula with a heavy bullet it will safely produce subsonic 30-06 loads too.

That's just scratching the surface...
 
the load - 13.0 ( one three ) grains of red dot / promo with a cast or even jacketed bullet from 130 to maybe190 grains is a bit more better than black powder I suspect
 
Back when I was a kid, I'd load five grains of shotgun smokeless behind a double-ought buck ball. Great squirrel load.

I still do that with .310" round balls in .30-30 and 06, and with .360" in .35 Remington and .38spcl/.357mag...

I don't go over 3gr Red Dot though, as I get better accuracy with slower loads...
 
If you're playing with black or one of the substitutes take note that you must not have any air space. ALL loads with BP, Pyrodex or 777 must be lightly to firmly compressed.

So for the reduced power loads like you're after if you want to use BP or the subs you need to fill the gap in any partially filled cases with something to ensure that you still run with a compressed load. Common fillers among the black powder folks are oat bran and cream of wheat.

You should also search on THR and generally on the web for ".30-06 small game loads". You are not the first to want to do this sort of thing for either lighter or slower loads. Using Google to search as noted gives back a couple of pages of good links to read.
 
I did a little experimenting. I had some hornady brass and i drilled the flash holes to 9/64". I started with a load of 21 grains by weight which is equal to about 30 grains of black powder. Then I kept working down. I have loaded all the way down to 7 grains and that will not push a 150 grain hornady interlock out of the barrel. 8.5 grains will push a bullet out but it will still be supersonic. 8.4 grains will not push the bullet all the way out. I need to get some lead bullets that are not jacketed. I am not sure why the loads would have to not have any air gap. I loaded with 8 grains of powder and the case is only 20% full. I had no misfires and the pressure was very low.
 
8.5 grains will push a bullet out but it will still be supersonic. 8.4 grains will not push the bullet all the way out.
Those results are waay too inconsistent to rely on.

I am not sure why the loads would have to not have any air gap.
Hope you don't find out the hard way! :)
 
You could possibly ring the chamber at the spot where the bullet base lays with an airgap between the base of the bullet and the powder.
Just fill the case to the base of the neck or slightly above and seat the bullet to touch the powder.
Be sure and clean those cases, those subs will eat cases worse than regular black does.
 
Don't forget you will have to clean the rifle AND the brass or the BP/substitute will cause serious corrosion. Plain water or with a little dish soap will do the job, followed by careful drying and lube. I load 45 Colt and 45-70 with BP. It's fun but the cleaning is required, preferably within a few hours of shooting.

Give the .310 round ball with a pinch of pistol powder a try. It can be surprisingly accurate out to fifty yards. It's a hoot to bring a full size battle rifle (in my case a Springfield '03) and have it sound and recoil like a pop gun.

Jeff
 
Ratshooter,

Thanks for posting that link. It is an outstanding article on reduced loads. I printed it out so I can annotate it as I develop loads in my different rifles.

Jeff
 
Just for the sake of argument, a black powder .30-06 load could be interesting...

The original 1888 .303 British load for the Lee-Metford featured 215 gr FMJ RN bullet propelled by a highly compressed 70 gr charge of BP for 1800 to 2000 fps. I am curious what a 220 gr could be launched out the .30-06 with a full case of BP.

As with many technologies, the "best" versions of that technology are developed just as it become obsolete. The 1887 9.5mm Turkish Mauser is about the optimum and most efficient BP cartridge ever developed, but died quickly as the new smokeless rounds hit the market.
 
There was a BPCR board with a good deal of discussion of .303 Mk I black powder loading.
Nobody could match the original velocity, probably because they did not have the capability of compressing that much powder into a solid cake with central flash passage. That cake was inserted in the brass before it was necked down. a process carried over to Cordite.

I had an article about the .32 Winchester Special, the round designed to be factory loaded with smokeless and reloaded with black in the days when everybody was scared of reloading with smokeless... with good cause.
The author was disappointed with shooting fresh black. Velocity was low, fouling was heavy, accuracy was poor. Then he found some old powder, ca 1912. Velocity was higher (but still not much greater than .32-40) fouling was light, and accuracy about as good as with smokeless.
 
I had an article by C.E. Harris in which he described the range of loads developed by Mattern. Mr Mattern found use for as little as 5 grains of Bullseye with a cast bullet in .30-06.

I did not have any Bullseye, so I loaded 700X.
7 grains of 700X and a 165 grain Laser Cast in .30-06 was a lot of fun.
12 grains was more accurate but you could actually feel a little recoil.
 
What could happen is there is an air gap?

I've already read that you went with reduced loads and you're still alive and typing with, I assume, all eight fingers and two thumbs. This suggests that 777 is more tolerant of air gaps in the load than real black powder is. Or you just got lucky and bought a really good and strong rifle.

With black powder and the subs an air gap causes the powder to flash and produce a much higher pressure spike than it should. Weaker barrels have literally blown up due to a large enough air gap even though shooting reduced loads.

There was a recent thread about just this where someone tried to shoot out a stuck round ball in a muzzle loader that was a good 6 to 8 inches from being seated. The pressure spike caused the barrel to split and petal out destroying the gun and wounding the shooter's hand badly.

We cannot and must not treat black powder and the substitutes like we do with smokeless. I urge you to read up more about loading black and subs before you go further. I know for sure that the loading information for Pyrodex has warnings about using only compressed loads and avoiding air gaps. I'd be surprised if the same information for 777 does not include the same warning.

If nothing else the variations in how the powder burns with and without an air gap will produce a massive non linearity in the muzzle velocity and cause your shots to hit all over the place.

To end up the folks over on the Black Powder forum here at THR also load and shoot a variety of cartridges. It's not just for muzzle loaders. You'd be welcomed if you drop on in there and want to discuss and get some help for this project.
 
Why use black powder in a reduced/sub sonic load when Hodgdon Trail Boss is available.

One is nasty/smelly and produces smoke and the firearm needs a good cleaning after using while the other was specifically made for the purpose of lower velocity/high loading density charges.

It's a no brainer:confused:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top