Colt Going Down? Market says ...

Aragon said:

Sam Colt was an entrepreneur and a superb salesman but he certainly wasn't a design, operating or financial guy.

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Are we talking about the same Sam Colt that invented the revolver in the first place? Carved the first design out of wood on a sailing ship?

Carving major parts out of wood is a beginning & far from the finished design.
Colt was neither an engineer nor a gunsmith & had a lotta help in getting his revolvers going.
Denis

After the Walker contract in 1857, Colt established his own factory. From that point on the company was financially sound and usually prosperous until the Great Depression of the 1930's. Incompetent management didn't come into the picture until after World War Two. After that it became endemic. :banghead:

What was Sam REALLY like?
You knew him personally, didn't you?
Denis

What was Sam REALLY like?
You knew him personally, didn't you?

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Sure did....

He was alright, but stubborn, like Bill Ruger.

Neither of them would pay much attention to my advise.

Sad.
If they only had....
Denis

So true.

But ya' know I don't think Bill paid much attention to anybody else's advise...

Denis

Old Fuff said:

After the Walker contract in 1857, Colt established his own factory. From that point on the company was financially sound and usually prosperous until the Great Depression of the 1930's. Incompetent management didn't come into the picture until after World War Two. After that it became endemic.

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Colt closed after WWII for almost two years...

That aside, like other gun makers, Colt has long been a feast and famine business. Along the way, Colt never made the huge investment in PP&E that S&W made under Carl Hellstrom, after Hellstrom took over a bloated and debt-ridden S&W before WWII.

Bring back the .38 sp. detective special at a reasonable price and people will buy it.

That one's in the same boat as the Python.
It CAN'T be brought back at "a reasonable price".
Dead!
Denis

And again, I agree with DPris.

Colt cannot make any of their former D-frame revolvers and sell them at a competitive price in today's commercial handgun market. An entirely new revolver(s) would cost too much in the face of potential sales, or lack of them.

Any snubby revolver would have to not only compete against Smith & Wesson and Taurus, but also the many polymer frame/striker fired/compact .380 and 9mm. pistols that are available, and made by manufacturers who have paid for the tooling many times over.

It is also unlikely the overall finishing would compare favorably against the earlier product line; even as current Smith & Wesson's made in an earlier time don't.

And if any new guns didn't meet the high expectations of Colt's relatively small number of fans at a price they considered reasonable (but really aren't) sales would not meet the necessary expectations to make the venture profitable.

I would point out that after the 2014 SHOT Show they're was some chatter about a new (but unspecified) revolver (or line of revolvers) being introduced at the 2015 show. It has come and gone, and none of this has come about.

The Old Fuff would love to see the improbable happen and have Colt offer more new handguns (not 2 older ones with slight modifications) but after working for decades in the firearms industry he highly doubts it's going to happen. I gave up wishful thinking many, many years ago.

It does seem sadly ironic that the company that essentially invented the commercial revolver business no longer has a competitive product on the market.

All I know is that if u hold in your hands and shoot a Colt 1911 from 30 or 40 years ago and a new one from today, U will defenetly tell the difference. The old ones are better.

I have shot both old and new 1911's. A good running vintage gun is nice. However, ain't a darn thing wrong with the new ones. Fit and finish is nice. My recent GCNM feeds any ammo I put in it great. It is more accurate than the Springfield it replaced. The factory trigger is much better than the Springer. . FWIW, I am not knocking Springfield. Mine was a very good gun.

MagnunJoe said:

All I know is that if u hold in your hands and shoot a Colt 1911 from 30 or 40 years ago and a new one from today, U will defenetly tell the difference. The old ones are better.

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Many of the "old ones" (of wartime production) were also made of inferior steel with inferior heat treating compared to what's being produced today.

IMHO Colt 1911s are good value for the mid-level 1911 market. My GCNM is a great gun, I like it so much I sold my Dan Wesson Valor. I also think the new Mustang .380 is one of the best .380s available.

MagnunJoe said:

All I know is that if u hold in your hands and shoot a Colt 1911 from 30 or 40 years ago and a new one from today, U will defenetly tell the difference. The old ones are better.

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I disagree, with the new CNC machinery Colt is making their best 1911s in decades. There was a recent post on another forum that showed the internals of an old 70 Series Colt vs. today's, the old ones were much rougher. I had a 70 series that had a nice finish and lettering, but shot several inches left, the result of the lugs being off center. I've heard of others with this problem.

I disagree, with the new CNC machinery Colt is making their best 1911s in decades. There was a recent post on another forum that showed the internals of an old 70 Series Colt vs. today's, the old ones were much rougher. I had a 70 series that had a nice finish and lettering, but shot several inches left, the result of the lugs being off center. I've heard of others with this problem.

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I had exactly the same experience. My 2010-2014 production 1991, Defender and Mustang have better fit and finish than my mid-70s Mark IV Government Model. The new Colts are nicely built and fairly priced.

Shear_stress said:

I had exactly the same experience. My 2010-2014 production 1991, Defender and Mustang have better fit and finish than my mid-70s Mark IV Government Model. The new Colts are nicely built and fairly priced.

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The old 70 Series Gold Cups were famous for their Eliason sights flying off, and according to Massab Ayoob the new ones are more consistently accurate than the 70 Series.

I think some just can't afford a Colt 1911. That's fine, I've been there, but don't tell me your cast frame and slide RIA or Ruger 1911 are as good as a Colt.

The problem with Colt's 1911 platform pistols is not that the workmanship is inferior, or that for what they represent is overpriced.

It's that they don't produce enough of them to earn the money needed to sustain the company.

The market is crowed with other companies that make and sell much more 1911 platform pistols and SAA style revolvers (Ruger in particular) then Colt does.

A very accurate assessment Old Fuff. My sentiments exactly from looking at gun stores. Rarely do you find a bunch of Colts on display (never is probably too harsh) but Springfields, Kimbers, Para's or even Sigs? Yes commonly. So in the display case I have one Colt and 10 Springfields of various shapes and sizes. Which one gets the sale?

This is why Colt is having issues in my opinion.

I'll go a bit further:

Obviously a gun is the total of all its parts. Prior to World War Two, Colt literally made each and every part in their various handguns. But as time went by this changed because it was more economical to buy some parts (such as pins and screws, grips and stocks, etc.) from other specialty manufacturers.

Over a decade ago one of those vendors told me because of the company's shaky financial condition, most of those who serviced the handgun part of the operation demanded up-front payment before delivery. No matter of what they were capable of doing this limited finish handguns to their current supply of parts, and partly explains why they're relatively few Colts in dealers' hands.

That is very interesting Old Fuff ... this fills in many blanks to the contemporary Colt business story...

Paul7 said:

The old 70 Series Gold Cups were famous for their Eliason sights flying off, and according to Massab Ayoob the new ones are more consistently accurate than the 70 Series.

I think some just can't afford a Colt 1911. That's fine, I've been there, but don't tell me your cast frame and slide RIA or Ruger 1911 are as good as a Colt.

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I suspect a Ruger 1911 is every bit as "good" as a corresponding Colt, although Colt doesn't make one priced as low as the Ruger.