What BP substitute is best?

Buck up and order a 5 lb lot of real powder from Grafs or Powder Inc.
None of the subs will work in your flintgun without a blackpowder charge under the fake stuff, so just go with the real thing and be done with it.

which is best

Well that is going to be subjective.
Everybody is going to claim what they like.
Pretty much is going to be what you can get.
The pan you will need s 4f equivalent although in real BP
some people use 3f.
But Pyrodex and T7 are still your only readily available choices.
Most suppliers will mix different grades of BP for shipping
Maybe some others near you will join in on a purchase?
You might try http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501

Looks like they will sell any amount, but the hazmat will get you.

I can confirm that you can get a single pound of real black from Grafs, because I've done it. They also combine hazmat so if you're buying modern primers or smokeless powder you can throw in a pound of real black without it adding to the hazmat at all. So if you reload or know somebody that does maybe you can piggyback on that order.

There are ways of stretching real black if you need to, but to run a flintlock you at a minimum pretty much need a couple of grains for the pan and 5 grains as the first part of the main charge. Then you would dump the substitute in on top of that. Cheesy but works in a pinch and the manufacturers say it's OK.

If you decide to forget the flintlock and go percussion I like 777 personally.

I only use real BP these days (Goex in my case) but I've used Pyrodex for percussion guns in the past. It did the job. However, trying to use a substitute in flintlocks was unreliable and unsatisfactory. Stick to black powder for the flinters.

A reminder since it's been a while for you. Pyrodex uses the same charge by volume, not weight. If your load calls for 50 grains of BP, use the same setting on the measure for Pyrodex even though the sub will weigh less. Excuse it if you remembered this.

Jeff

And while we're on the topic, 777 is also measured by volume but it's a little more powerful - about 15%. So if you have a 100 grain max don't go past 85.

Use the real stuff... it's available, so get it. NONE of the substitutes are as good. None...


Willie

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IMHO, there is no reason to go with a substitute. And no, shooting anything other than BP in a flintlock is going to be a very frustrating experience--speaking from experience on that one.

Not sure why you are forced to buy 10 pounds at a time? There are options to purchase less.

From my experience substitutes aren't worth the trouble. Unless something has changed Triple 7 or Pyrodex or whatever will not work as a priming charge. You must use black in the pan. Bite the bullet and get black.

Brown Bess repros have large locks so you will in all likelihood be able to use 3f to set off a charge of 3f with a proper flint. That worked in my trade gun and may solve your logistics problem.

And just to second that, I use 3F in both parts of my Bess and it's fine. There's probably some theoretical disadvantage in terms of the lock speed but it's not something you'll really notice. It's reliable and works great.

Sorry hardly anyone actually answered your question. I like Hodgens 777. Follow the instructions and use a little less than black powder or use the same as black for a little more velocity. I actually have a large supply of black but usually hunt with 777. Works great. Easier to clean. Easier to obtain. Nothing wrong with the real stuff either. Still use it sometimes.

I also use 3F Triple 7 as well as 3F Olde Eynsford by Goex through my two .44/.45 cal revolvers and .50 cal rifle, but these are all percussion.

Being interested in trying real BP but not wanting any of the weaker variety I ended up buying from Grafs. To offset the HAZMAT fee it takes about 3 lbs of powder compared to buying it local (then). $23 vs about $32 per pound for T7, but the Olde E couldn't be found locally that I knew of. I tried BassPro as I knew they stocked regular Goex, but the guy behind the counter was not very pleasant when asked about it.

Though I have to spend a little more at one time I do like that it's sent straight to my door, which being far from anywhere now is quite nice! Unfortunately they haven't had any percussion caps in the last couple of years as it would further be helpful so as not to pay another HAZMAT for them as well.

But as was stated you'll not get subs (that I'm aware of) to work in a flintlock without a duplex load and BP in the pan. If you can get it to work it likely won't be nearly as reliable.

Do any of the substitutes work in a flintlock?....

Click to expand...

I know of no faster way to wind up w/ a BP weapon thrown into the river than for someone to buy a first-ever flintlock and then try to use a BP substitute.

GET REAL BP ! (Yes, I'm speaking high-decibel. )

Bite the bullet and/or go into partnership with some others on buying enough to offset the HAZMAT charge.
(and remember, that Brown Bess is a powder hog. Don't skimp on the amount.)
2Fg is best for the main charge.
Get a pound of 4Fg for the pan.



Postscript: No one else has mentioned it, but get a dozen #9 (real) flints right off the bat:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/List/Item.aspx/141/1/FLINT-ENG-9
(Second most-heard reason for throwing a flintlock into the river is trying to use the
cut-agate manufactured "flints" that come with most factory weapons these days.)

777

777's warning about 15% reduction has nothing to do with excess pressure.
Because it is a bit more powerful, in order to get apples to apples comparision to BP, for muzzle velocity, pounds per ft of force and thus the same accuracy as in BP, they recommend a 15% reduction.
But if all you shoot is 777 and don't have a BP reference point to begin with it doesn't matter.
But in any respect one should not go over the Maximum number of grains recommended as safe by the manufacturer of th gun.

https://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html
Triple Seven is a high energy product designed to provide the muzzleloading hunter with higher velocities when used in the same VOLUME as blackpowder. To duplicate a blackpowder load velocity using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%. *See WARNING below.

As I said, nothing about pressures, just velocity, as compared to a given load of BP which translates to equivalent accuracy.

https://www.hodgdon.com/ml-warning.html

I started using Pyrodex when it was the only choice, but even they suggest using the real thing in the pan for flintlock. The big negative for me is the stuff (Pyrodex) is so corrosive, night and day difference betwen it and 777 that my son uses.

I was going to try Black MZ from Alliant, as it is supposed to be very non-corrsive.

777 give higher velocities under the same pressures, but accurracy often suffers, unless you reduce the 777 charge to dulicate your BP velocities, in antique replicas.

BP is not (repeat, Not) corrosive.

That said, don't leave the residue in the barrel for any length of time (overnight/
-days) as it attracts water which it then holds in contact with the steel.

It is actually easier to clean than smokeless. Just swab barely-soapy water through
the barrel/nipple channel dissolving/flushing it near instantly; allow to dry; and then
oil/wipe down surfaces/nipple threads as usual.

Done

BP is not (repeat, Not) corrosive.

Click to expand...

Sorry, its not very clear from my wording. I was referring to the Pyrodex.

Not-to-worry D)
Anytime we'un's can swear people off Pyro and onto something better suited, the better.

On the subject of 777 (though), even that is problemmatic outside of direct in-line use
with Shotshell/209 primers.

While RSO'ing two weeks ago, I had a guy having problems with a patched-ball sidelock not
firing/squibbing even though the cap itself was firing OK. I finally had to dump 3-4 grains of 4Fg
(real BP)into the flashchannel/under the nipple to clear the barrel--TWICE--after he loaded w/ Triple-7.**
(Turns out the 777 guys themselves say to reserve it to In-Lines -- and definitely not with flintlocks.)


** Even the 4Fg primer under the nipple wouild only "bloop" the ball/777 out the muzzle. Weird sounding & scary.

re: 777 and reliability - with relatively direct ignition (cap and ball) I've had zero problems. With some of the more roundabout ignition, like through a drum, I've had SOME percussion rifles have problems. Sticking to the hotter caps fixed it - CCI Magnum, Remington, RWS. Basically anything except non-magnum CCI (or Winchester which is the same thing).

Again, using real black negates this issue.

I've had 0 problems using 3F Triple 7 in my .50 cal Deerstalker, Pietta Remington '58, and Ruger Old Army using old Rem #11's, CCI #11 mags, or Rem #10's. Between the 3 I've fired in the neighborhood of 700-1000 shots, though maybe half are with T7.

I stand behind the 777 (non-memorable) experience at the range two weeks ago in a sidelock.
The shooter came back the next weekend to try it again (since he didn't want to 'waste' the 777.)
This time I didn't have my BP range box w/ the 4Fg to clear the rifle.
And after a fruitless hour he went home to try pulling the ball.

I do not recommend it.

Maybe there was a different issue at play.

Well, again, I've seen cap locks that didn't "like" substitutes (two of them to be precise). But to universally say that it's only suitable for inlines with 209 primers because of one or two guns is a little extreme. And I've never seen one that didn't become reliable if you use the modern caps that are designed to set off substitutes. And for all we know this guy has a totally filthy ignition channel, or old/wet powder, or who knows what else - there's just no way to know from a second hand story what's going on.

I don't think there's any question that real black is less likely to have problems and especially for a new shooter is easier to debug. For OP in particular if he gets a flintlock he's going to need the real deal. But I don't think it's useful or helpful to throw out blanket statements based on one gun that clearly aren't universal.

"I am recovering now. I do not intend to return to that poisonous place, ever again."

"Breechloaders" ..... I have to spit on the ground every time I say that word.