Lever action carry

rszwieg · Mar 7, 2015

I've been re-reading Jeff Cooper's "Art of the Rifle".

In it Cooper states that the proper way to carry a lever action rifle is Condition 3; that is with an empty chamber. I've always carried my Marlins with a loaded chamber on half cock and kept my finger off the trigger until ready to fire.

Is this an unsafe procedure?

WestKentucky · Mar 8, 2015

I do the same, my dad does the same with his. My rifle came from my grandfather who did the same. Between the three of is there are a good 90 years of no issues...but with that said there is no safer gun in the field than one that you know the chamber is empty on. When crossing fences, climbing treestands etc I do go condition 3.

CaliCoastie · Mar 8, 2015

I'm betting many beers have been consumed over this topic, is it less safe than a empty chamber? Yes. Do i carry that way in the wood's? No. I carry with a loaded chamber on half cock.

jamesinalaska · Mar 8, 2015

When I am in the field I carry my lever action the same as WestKentucky: cartridge in the chamber with the hammer at half cock. Actually I should say, when I am in the field and walking, I carry my lever action the same as WestKentucky. When the rifle is in the truck or scabbarded and rigged to the horse or 4-wheeler (if I had a 4-wheeler) the chamber is empty. I like lever actions for the very reason that if I have to pull it from the scabbard quickly I can chamber a round and cock the action before it gets to my shoulder.

200Apples · Mar 8, 2015

.
Model 92's have a one-piece firing pin that's long and heavy. It's recommended to carry the 92 on half-cock but with an empty chamber.

Dunno about the Win '94 or what the Marlin '94 folks do. I should! since I own all three!

rszwieg · Mar 8, 2015

I don't know anyone who carries a lever in Conditon 3 either and thought it peculiar he'd call it "proper". Unless you'd practice this alot it seems too slow for fast shots in dense woods.

rcmodel · Mar 8, 2015

I own 10 Winchester & Marlin lever or pump hammer guns.
And have hunted with them for about 60 years with never an accident.

They are 100% safe and immune to hammer notch or sear damage hammer down against the receiver.

They are less safe loaded and on the safety notch, because an impact on the hammer 'could' cause a part break, or slip out of the hammer notch and fire the gun.

When I carry them loaded on the safety notch, I keep my thumb over the hammer to protect it, as well as be able to quickly cock and fire it.
But I don't carry them chamber loaded unless a shot is likely.

So, I agree with Col. Cooper.

And of course, finger off the trigger at all times until ready to fire.

rc

DPris · Mar 8, 2015

Cooper was a man to listen to on some things, but not on everything.

Denis

243winxb · Mar 8, 2015

Empty chamber = safe

No manual safety makes for an unsafe firearm. The old Win m94 30 wcf is the most accident prone firearm ever made. :uhoh:

(Mostly when loading and unloading it.)

cottswald · Mar 8, 2015

I don't think it's a stretch to say Cooper knows better, but in this case, no doubt he takes his council from his lawyers. Considering the times, can't say I blame him.

243winxb · Mar 8, 2015

PRODUCT SAFETY NOTICE - WARNING

Winchester 94: PRODUCT SAFETY NOTICE - WARNING

10/2/2014

WINCHESTER® Model 94 Family of Lever-Action

Rifles, Carbines, and Muskets with Half-Cock Safety

Winchester Model 94 (including commemoratives); Winchester Model 1894;Winchester Model 9422 and Model 9422M; Winchester Model 55 Sears® Model 54 and Ted Williams® Model 100; Winchester Model 64 and 64A; Winchester Centennial ’66; Winchester Canadian Centennial ‘67

Olin Corporation, through its Winchester Division, is warning users of the above firearms that when there is a live cartridge in the chamber, dropping, jarring or bumping the firearm may cause an accidental discharge, which may result in property damage, serious personal injury or death to the user or others:
◦With the hammer in the full-down position, a slight impact to, or bumping the hammer can cause a discharge.
◦With the hammer in the half-cock safety position, a hard impact to the hammer, such as from dropping the firearm, can break the safety mechanism and cause a discharge.
◦With the hammer in any position, a hard impact, such as from dropping or jarring the firearm, can cause a discharge, even if the hammer is not impacted.

To reduce the risk of accidental discharge, follow safe firearm handling practices, including:
◦Always maintain control of the firearm and keep your firearm pointed in a safe direction at all times.
◦Never place the hammer in the full-down position when there is a live cartridge in the chamber.
◦Never rely on the half-cock safety to prevent accidental discharge due to dropping or jarring the firearm, or hard impacts to the hammer.
◦When there is a live cartridge in the chamber, avoid activities that increase the risk of dropping or jarring the rifle, such as running, climbing, crossing a fence, and taking the firearm up and down from a tree stand.

This is not an ammunition or firearm recall.

For Winchester firearm owner’s manuals please go to www.winchesterguns.com/customerservice/ownersmanuals

© 2014 WINCHESTER 600 Powder Mill Road East Alton, IL 62024-1273

You can no longer sue if you have a accident.

jmr40 · Mar 8, 2015

Not just lever actions. In many parts of the country, particularly the west, the tradition is to carry hunting rifles with an empty chamber and only chamber a round after game has been spotted. Many guides won't take a hunter who insists on keeping a loaded chamber.

These debates can be long and heated. I've seen epic threads on the topic.

On the National level, hunters safety instructor organizations recommend the chamber be unloaded if the hunter is in terrain where a fall is likely, crossing fences or ditches or while climbing into tree stands. They don't address keeping then unloaded all the time, so that is personal preference.

coondogger · Mar 8, 2015

I frequently hunt with a lever action (30-30) and carry it with an open chamber. The minimal convenience does not outweigh the risk. But Robert Ruark explained it far more eloquently in his classic 'The old man and the boy."

JRWhit · Mar 8, 2015

Not to throw a wrench in the gears here, but what about the addition of a push button safety on the newer marlins? How does that change how it should be carried?

I always entered the woods,"in daylight" with a loaded chamber, 1/2 cock, safety on.
That being said, I had a clear path to a spot just a short hike away, and moved very slow and carefully so not to scare everything away.

Then again, when I went in the early morning before daybreak, the rifle stayed empty until I got where I was going.

bhk · Mar 8, 2015

Two separate issues here. When one says 'carry,' what do they mean? Are they talking about actively hunting, or just informal daily carry on a 4-wheeler, in a pickup, or while hiking? When actively hunting (like seeing game at any given moment), it may be more common and acceptable to many to keep the chamber loaded. Otherwise, the empty chamber approach makes more sense.

The other issue seems more regional. Whenever this topic comes up, those hunting in the open portions of the great West usually insist on carry/hunting with an empty chamber. This makes sense because game is often spotted well before a shot is actually taken. Hunters from the heavily-wooded East often insist on carrying fully loaded with hammer at half cock because the time between spotting game and a shot taken may be only a second or two. Also, the very act of cycling the lever will likely spook a 20 yard deer.

I live in a half-wooded portion of Missouri. When actively hunting, I carry with a loaded chamber and at half cock.

g.willikers · Mar 8, 2015

What's the best way to take a lever action rifle from condition 1 (loaded chamber) to condition 3 (unloaded chamber) with a full magazine?

herrwalther · Mar 8, 2015

I am sure many deer and other game animals have been lost because of advice like Cooper's to carry with an empty chamber. Just not with my Marlin 336 or the family members who ever hunted with my great-grandfather's Marlin 36, as it has always been half cock carry.

DPris · Mar 8, 2015

I live in the West & nobody ever told me we carry with an empty chamber.

Denis

ford8nr · Mar 8, 2015

I frequently hunt with a lever action (30-30) and carry it with an open chamber.

How does that work? Are we talking lever down / CHAMBER open, or EMPTY chamber / lever up / chamber closed?

Can't think of a time I'd want to carry with the chamber OPEN. Too much crap could find it's way inside.

Malamute · Mar 8, 2015

I carry regularly, I hunt only for short periods of time. I usually have an empty chamber. In and out of vehicles, home, etc, it lessens the handling, chambering etc.

Its not likely to cause a problem carrying a round in the chamber and hammer at half cock. Its impossible to have an AD or ND with an empty chamber, even if the gun is dropped in rocks and such. I chamber a round if actively hunting and in thick stuff, or if a quick shot is likely, but then, I wont shoot unless I have ear plugs in. No game is worth losing any more hearing to me.

I do sometimes keep a round chambered when walking, if its snake season or time, I keep a round ball load chambered and a spare in the sling keeper. The extra-light loads I load singly, otherwise chambering a round from the magazine isnt that much of an issue.

I see little handicap carrying chamber empty most of the time. I carry in grizzly country and in some thick stuff. The time to chamber a round is insignificant to me. If I saw a bear up close or the dog went on high alert, I may, but rarely ever have.

What's the best way to take a lever action rifle from condition 1 (loaded chamber) to condition 3 (unloaded chamber) with a full magazine?

With Winchesters, clearing the chamber is comparatively simple. Cycle lever down, catch round ejecting from chamber, push carrier back down with little finger, close action. Marlins require shaking out the round trying to feed from the magazine after ejecting the chambered round. I've heard of some that say they can stop the next round from coming up, but I havent been able to do it with any I've had. I just find Winchesters more user friendly for the way I use them. YMMV

Bullseye · Mar 8, 2015

Empty for me except when in the stand. Then if I am sure that the rifle won't fall and it is secure, I will load with the hammer back a notch. Doesn't take all that long to chamber that would interfere with a "know my target" before I shoot scenario. Takes longer to be sure of what is in the path of my shot and what my target is than to work a lever.
There's a reason to carry with an empty chamber as a rule, learned from the mistakes of others who didn't.

rondog · Mar 8, 2015

My 1994 Winnie .44 Trapper has the crossbar safety that blocks the hammer from hitting the firing pin. I've always assumed that it was safe to carry hammer down with a chambered round, since my testing at the range has shown that it WON'T fire with that crossbar in the SAFE position, no matter how many times I cock the hammer and pull the trigger.

Is it actually NOT safe now?

Malamute · Mar 8, 2015

Crossbolts and rebounders are pretty safe to carry. I dont happen to own any, though I think its a step up in overall safe handling, especially if one chooses to carry a round in the chamber or for unloading.

Zeke/PA · Mar 8, 2015

Iv'e carried an older Marlin 336 for about the last 10 years here in Penns Woods.
I carry the rifle on half cock with a round chambered. Yes indeed I pay attention to my rifle. When I get a shot, I merely have to full cock the rifle and shoot.
I killed 5 deer with NO misfires/ accidents with this Marlin setup.
The problem/s ain't with the rifle!

MCgunner · Mar 8, 2015

I'm not scared and I'm muzzle aware. Hell, I rely on Remington safeties. How safe is THAT?

I don't chamber a round until I'm going hunting. I'll carry the gun in the truck with nothing in the chamber. I'll unload after the hunt. But, during the hunt, one is in the chamber.

Lever action carry

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