Heavy safes in a residence?

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coloradokevin

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I've been considering stepping up to a real legitimate safe for gun storage in my house… something along the lines of an Amsec high security model (TL-15 or TL-30 rated).

I'm just kind of bothered by the fact that I know tools I own could be used to force entry into almost any of the standard store bought "safes" we typically use for gun storage.

Aside from cost, which is unavoidable, the other thing that deters me from a higher security safe is the fact that these things weigh so darn much. The best place in my house for a safe is the basement, but I doubt residential stairs are intended to take a 3,000 lb load.

Do any of you know if this is feasible or not? Can heavy safes be safely moved (by trained and equipped professionals) to a basement level of a home? Or, do I need to go in a different direction with this problem?

For whatever it's worth, I live in a 1960's ranch home, with a straight staircase that leads to the basement level… you'd be at the top of the stores as soon as you enter the home from the garage. So, the stairs are the only real big issue I see.
 
Can it be done? Absolutely. It will be very expensive.

Conventional means of moving a safe down a set of residential stairs will usually limit your weight at around 1,000 pounds.

Another option would be a rated, modular unit. Still a hassle, but likely easier to accomplish.
 
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Do you have enough space to build a walk-in cinderblock-and-rebar gun closet? That, with a steel door, might work. My friend had one in Alabama.
 
Id strongly reconsider. Cost me $300 every time I had to have my 900 pound save move up or down stairs. Two pro save movers with a special dolly struggled. A 3000 pound safe down old narrow stairs would create a lot of very expensive and dangerous problems. I would worry about a collapse and someone getting killed. And someday you need to pay to get ot back out.

I would look into a different location or a modular safe. Or an addition on the house. Build a designated gun room
 
Most likely a modular would be the way to go and a alarm system for you house. Or move into a home with a walk out basement.
 
Buy two smaller quality safes, set them side by side and bolt them together from the inside.
 
A mid-level safe would probably be fine. Anchor is to floor and put a dozen bags of lead shot in the bottom. I moved a safe into my basement with my new house. Safe is about 800 lbs alone. After bolting to floor, a loaded it up. Now, it weighs about 1000 lbs. Getting it down the stairs empty was a pain in the butt, with guys and a heavy duty hand truck. Getting it back out would be a nightmare. Most thieves probably don't have the know-how to force it open.

If you are worried about power tools in your shop space, just turn off the breaker for nearby outlets and keep up your drill index in the safe. It's a time game. The slower and more frustrating you make things, the better the chance a thief will give up and leave.
 
Mine is 850lbs empty, figure another 200 lbs of stuff inside. I thought I would never bother with bolting it down...until I realized I could slide it across my fake tile floor....right over to the cellar door by myself with no help.

If you have a stairwell accessible straight down from the outside, turn your stairway into a slide with 3/4 inch plywood and use a chain hoist to slowly slide your safe down the stairs (on a dolly with runners). This spreads the weight across all the risers and reduces point load as much as you can.
 
Some planking and plywood will distribute the weight on the stairs if they are built of any quality at all, the thing to avoid is impact and loading individual treads.
As has been stated, lay it down and lower with adequate hoisting equipment.
Knowing a fair amount about metal work I am curious about the composition of the high end safes and their composition, are they simply made of thicker steel or is the fireproofing a castable mixture that is hardened and will make bi-metal blades more difficult to function if the side or back is being cut out?
 
While the basement might seem to be a good place for your safe it is definitely not a good place for your guns. Open the safe's door and let some humid air in and close it up one time and you will have corrosion problems. Moving a large safe in and out of a basement is a MAJOR job. If possible place the safe upstairs even if you have to reinforce the load bearing framing under it with posts or house jacks. Best of all - figure out some way to build the safe into a wall and completely conceal it. If they don't find it they can't break in to it.:scrutiny: If they find it and have time and tools - they may get it open. I have hidden several safes by placing them in a closet with a false wall in front of it. It's not as convenient but it is more secure. Look around your house and use your imagination. Somewhere there is a place to hide it.
 
I do have a walk out basement and bought a used money vault. 4000# empty and a UL fire rating above any gun safe. Pro safe co made it look easy putting it in place. Thieves will not have equipment to move it.
 
2 ton is substantial for sure, how many guns does that safe hold, do you have any concern with thieves just cutting into it with a blade attached to a hand grinder?
 
ColoradoKevin;

The practicality of doing it would depend on the size and weight of what you're proposing to get. The many years I worked in the industry we did not have any problems with delivery into a basement as long as we could inspect first and knew what we were expected to deal with regarding the safe. However, 2500 lbs. was about the maximum weight and nothing over 5 feet tall were very real restrictions for stairs. At times we did have to reinforce the stairway.

900F
 
This is probably stupid (OK, it's almost certainly stupid) but could an existing safe be used as the entry for a safe room? Imagine pouring reinforced concrete walls up against a safe, then drilling holes thru the face so it could be tied into the walls flush with the face. Now, take a torch and cut out the back of the safe--you might have to stoop, but you could just walk thru the safe as sort of a 'tunnel' and into the room behind it.

My understanding is that most RSC break ins go thru the sides because the doors are the best built part. This would expose only the door to attack. The thinner safe body would be behind the concrete wall.

Stupid, right?
 
Elkins;

You would want to be very careful about which RSC you used. Some of them, one very well known brand in particular, are triumphs of advertising over reality in my opinion. But then, I've also seen a "vault door" that met that same low standard.

900F
 
I've also seen a "vault door" that met that same low standard.

This is a serious issue with many of these gun safe and gun room door manufacturers. Several of them "saw a need", and started building them in their garage. Since they never had any background working with safes and vault doors, they didn't really have a clue what it too to keep somebody out. So they copy what they have seen from others, but still have no idea why they are doing what they are doing, or if it's even correct.

The end result? I installed a 1" plate vault door about a year ago. I could have opened it in a few minutes with very simple tools. That 1" plate sure gave the illusion of security, but the design was so severely lacking that it was easily bypassed.

Buyer beware.
 
CB900F said:
The practicality of doing it would depend on the size and weight of what you're proposing to get. The many years I worked in the industry we did not have any problems with delivery into a basement as long as we could inspect first and knew what we were expected to deal with regarding the safe. However, 2500 lbs. was about the maximum weight and nothing over 5 feet tall were very real restrictions for stairs. At times we did have to reinforce the stairway.

Thanks for the numbers you provided.

It's not so much that I'd like a heavy safe, I'd really just like one that's very secure. As such, I didn't really consider the idea of simply adding lead shot to the base of a relatively "insecure" unit, as it obviously wouldn't make the safe any harder to enter.

My two biggest concerns are burglary and fire protection. I honestly don't anticipate someone (or even multiple folks) realistically moving a large heavy safe from my basement, even if we're only using a typical residential security container in the 800lb range as our definition of "large and heavy".

However, I do worry about the threat posed by grinders and pry bars while the safe is sitting in its location. I do have tools of this sort at my house, and a burglar could conceivably find these if they were in my home for any length of time. Admittedly, burglaries usually happen quickly and without much forethought. Nevertheless, any safe (whether secure or not) serves as the equivalent of a flashing neon sign that says: "THERE IS SOMETHING VALUABLE HERE!"

It seems to me that the minimum rating I'd want to protect from a threat of serious pry attacks or grinders would be a TL-15 (or equivalent). The problem with these safes, of course, is that they are ridiculously heavy when compared to RSC rated "safes".

That has left me questioning whether or not I should go with a less secure RSC, or figure out a way to get a legitimate safe in the house. I've considered my garage, but that seems to be the least ideal location: subject to wild temperature swings, more humidity, and it puts the safe in the most visible location of my house, while also making it easy to steal. Of course, a 3-4,000 lb safe still isn't going to be easy to steal, even if I left it sitting in the front yard (but, it is certainly "easier").

I don't really consider my first floor a viable option. We don't have a great surplus of space on the main level of the house, and the better half probably wouldn't go for that idea. As such, the basement was my top pick. It's also not nearly as humid in my Colorado basement as it has been in basements I've had in homes in other parts of the country (so humidity is of low concern there). But, it would definitely be a project to get a legitimate safe into a location that involves a flight of stairs!
 
But, it would definitely be a project to get a legitimate safe into a location that involves a flight of stairs!

Sometimes on the really heavy stuff, we don't use the stairs. There are no weight limitations when moving a safe through a home, only cost limitations. You could get something as large or as heavy as you wished if you had the budget to facilitate the installation.
 
ColoradoKevin;

The above is certainly true if you have no cost limitations. However, the "money is no object" philosophy comes in to play so rarely as to be virtually non-existent for the vast majority of our customers. This is where the practicality/cost ratio has to be taken into account for installation for most folks.

In my experience, that 2500 lbs. on stairs is a hard upper limit given lumber construction. Even then reinforcing bracing would be required for safety. And that all comes at a cost of course. Some homes do have cement stairs into the basement, but even then the 2500 lbs. is pretty much an upper limit without involving very specialized equipment that further raises the cost. You don't want to know what the worker's comp premiums are for safe mover's are.

900F
 
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I have to reiterate for the cost and hassles of doing a basement job, you should really price out a small room addition to the home. A poured 10x10 rebar reinforced cement room off the back or side of your house. I'd suspect that it would be better and more cost efficient and better option than trying to get a safe into the basement.

As for safes, one option is a modular unit.

You can either get one of several commercial ones or make your own. Zanotti and others make them, but they might be quite expensive.

http://www.zanottiarmor.com/safes.htm


You might consider cheaper materials... cinder blocks, rebar, and bags of quikcrete, some fireresistant drywall, and a vault door perhaps? No idea how this would work out, the level of fire resistance, etc. But you could make a large area maybe 10x10 or similar.

Obviously this would be a permanent addition to the home...
 
Where does the water go when the fire department turns the hoses on a house?


Into the basement.


A safe in a basement has to be placed to account for the amount of water that will accumulate in the basement as the FD "surrounds and drowns" the house fire.
 
Try and find Cliff Hamblen. He moves/installs big gun safes along the front range... or used to. I don't know if he's still in the industry.

I got his business card off the counter at Gander Mtn. in Thornton several years ago, and asked him the very same questions. After about the third or fourth phone call to him, he cut to the chase and just plain told me how to do it because he could tell that I was going to take a crack at it one way or another.
At times we did have to reinforce the stairway.
Yep, did that. Fashioned leg-bracing under the stairway and a sort of sled that the safe lay on, and a type of railway down the stairs. It was touch-n-go there for a few minutes as we were lowering it down, but we got 'er done. You don't want the safe drifting off to one side and cutting its way through your sheet-rock walls in the stairway. It could end very poorly if you don't figure it all the way out from the start.

I would advise finding Cliff and getting some pointers from him. Maybe even have him and his son install it for you.

hth
Where does the water go when the fire department turns the hoses on a house?
Right. That's why I welded together some serious angle iron to end up with a hefty 'pedestal' for each safe to stand on. It gets the safe up at comfortable eye levels and so you don't bend down so much; this way, the water would have to get up around 18" high or so before it gets inside the safes. I highly recommend it for all basement safes.
 
Kevin:

My standard answer to this type of question is ; FFF Black Powder makes an excellent desiccant. Simply store a pound or two on a pie tin on the bottom of your safe.
I find the top of my safe is an excellent place to store an angle grinder.;)

Keep the guns under the bed.:evil:



More seriously. Your stairs are not designed for that load. Can they be moved out of the way? A beam crossing many ceiling joists above the stair opening might support a block and tackle. If not, any skilled carpenter could erect temp walls to hold the weight.

. . . Or, truss up your stairs from beneath, and lay 2x4s over the stairs. I'd still use a block and tackle to lower it down the incline plane. Attached to a secure wall.
 
"2 ton is substantial for sure, how many guns does that safe hold, do you have any concern with thieves just cutting into it with a blade attached to a hand grinder?"

How many guns does it hold? Don't know, never counted. As a old money vault the steel is burglar resistant and quite hard to drill. If the house might be vacant for a time (which it is not), It should take a bunch of time to get into it.
 
I am contemplating purchasing a safe. It seems like the AmSec safes are highly recommended. However, where to locate it is the concern, as addressed in the previous threads.

Possible locations:

1) Basement: However, difficult to get down to, stairs go half way down, and then you reach a landing and they turn 90 degrees.

2) Garage: Easy to get into and out of, flimsy garage door is the only barrier to getting to safe, no burglar alarm triggered, which is NOT the case with the basement or rest of the house.

3) First floor of the house: More secure than garage, much easier to get to than the basement; HOWEVER, no portion of the house is on a slab, it entirely is above the basement, so, in the event of a devastating fire, the safe comes crashing down into the basement. So, what would YOU do?
 
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