Enlarged flash holes

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gamestalker

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A friend of my Son who is rather new to reloading, is blowing primers one after the other, this is in two very nice AR builds, one is .223, the other is .308, and the charges he's having problems with should be just fine. We're talking about mid table if not just slightly below charges, various powders also. He isn't seated into or even close to the lands either. I reviewed his entire process from start to finish, including brass prep. As I said, all the powder charges are conservative, primers are CCI, Win brass, some Win. brass. One rifle and loads for it blowing primers is one thing, but two of them experiencing the same exact problem, well it's got to be an obvious reloading problem.

He's not entirely new to reloading, but he is by no stretch an experienced long timer. He has read and absorbed an enormous amount of information, which is possibly where the problem is originating, too much, too soon, if you know what I mean. He was rather reluctant, but agreed to let me observe him reloading a batch from start to finish, and for this operation he used new Win brass.

The first thing he did was uniform the pockets, no real concern there, though I couldn't personally see the need. It didn't appear he was taking off much if any material from the walls of the pocket, more so just uniforming the depth. But then he picked up a drill and began increasing the size of the flash holes, like really enlarged, something he just recently began doing, stating he picked up the tip from another reloading buddy, also rather new to the hobby. His reasoning here, was that by making the flash hole nice and big, powder charges would ignite more consistently, thus delivering more consistent velocities and claims that all the pros do it. When I tried to address this step, he got very defensive and said he knew what he was doing, so I walked away. His diagnosis is that CCI primers are the problem, that they have thin cups.

The rest of his process was actually very well done, he has good tools, spends time making sure they are concentric, I was actually impressed with how he performs the rest of the process, he certainly seems to have more in depth technological knowledge than I do, just not the flash hole thing.

Anyway, I've never altered flash holes, I've only fix those with half moon incomplete holes, minor defects in other words, nothing beyond that though.

So my question, wouldn't an excessively large flash hole increase the amount of pressure on the primer, thus blowing them out, or causing the seal between the cup & pocket to fail? I know there is a formula that applies to the physics involved here, so I think this is where he is in error. If I had to guess, I would say they are 20% - 30% larger after he performs this process.

BTW, this poor fellow has two really nice AR's with bolt faces that are a complete mess, and he has only been altering flash holes in this manner for a short time.

GS
 
OK, first of all let's establish that I'm not (yet) a reloader, though I'm building up to it.

That said, I am an engineer (nuclear engineer, well grounded on operational aspects of naval nuclear propulsion plants) whose experience and training extends from electrical engineering technology, fracture mechanics, heat transfer/fluid flow, and a broad spectrum of other fields. The purpose of much of that training wasn't just baseline knowledge, but to enable me to understand the fundamentals of a number of fields for practical applications in my field. It's served me well on a great number of occasions.


That said, let's address the issue of "blowing primers one after the other".

This is occurring because of physical pressures acting across an area large enough to cause what your friend's son is seeing. One or more issues are causing these symptoms.

First thing your friend's son needs to do is quit acting stupid. By this I mean he needs to start using his brain and not his ego. The symptoms and signs are right there in front of him and it's easy enough for him to find out what's happening.


And if I'm wrong with my diagnosis...I'm quite sure someone else here will correct me in short order.

;)

Practically speaking, he needs to load up a batch of cartridges WITHOUT his modifications to the primer pocket. As in NO modifications at all...no reaming and no drilling.

Then he can load up another batch with reaming ONLY.

Then he can load up another batch with drilling ONLY.

And finally, he can load up another batch with reaming AND drilling.

Then he takes a trip to the range and tests things out.


See, those people who designed and developed the brass for his rifles were pretty smart cookies. They're built to the specifications that they are for a reason, namely that they work very well with little, if any, modifications required.

The same for primers...primer design probably hasn't changed significantly, if at all, for several decades for any given primer manufacturer. Though it is possible for some defects in manufacturing.


The blowing primers problem IS being caused by excessive forces being felt across the cross-sectional area of the primer. It may or may not be exacerbated by the reaming of the pockets, which may make the primers a somewhat looser fit (though I doubt it from your description of the problem). These excessive forces ARE caused by the expanding gases from the burning powder in his loads. It can come from nowhere else. If his loads are well within reload specs, then the problem HAS to be what he's altered...most likely the enlarging of the primer hole. This would allow the pressure from the expanding gases to be transmitted much more easily through the primer hole and thus be felt as a larger pressure impulse on the primer itself.


I've been very impressed with the knowledge of the experienced reloaders on this site. Give them a good picture of a problem cartridge and these guys tend to his the nail on the head with the problem. And EVERY TIME they do, it makes PERFECT engineering sense to me.

Like I said...your friend's son needs to quit being stupid and letting his ego blind him to the signs right in front of his face.

I'd seriously recommend having him make up those test batches I mentioned and let him figure it out for himself.

If he doesn't...maybe you can get ahold of a couple hands full of his brass, altered and unaltered, and make up those batches using his load specs and demonstrate them on the range for him.
 
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He's not entirely new to reloading, but he is by no stretch an experienced long timer. He has read and absorbed an enormous amount of information, which is possibly where the problem is originating, too much, too soon, if you know what I mean.

I am sure most of us on this board and other similar boards ... have ran across this same "type" scenario ... be it priming ... sizing ... etc. Many of these folks are "reluctant" to even listen to good advise from folks that have walked the walk ....

What many of these folks fail to understand is that reloading and shooting is something that they need "grow" into .... You can never gain "all" the knowledge over night or ever for that fact ... I still learn something new every day about reloading it is a non ending process! I think it is mostly to blame on the "I am here ... give it to me now" society that we all live in.
 
I know a lot of folks from shooting matches. Even world champion shooters that I've talked extensively about match reloading, and they and I don't enlarge flash holes. I'm getting a SD 2 and ES 5. Can't get much more consistent than that.

It would make sense though that the primers would have more pressure on them.
 
I don't know where he picked up the notion that enlarging primer pockets will help uniformity of the burn, but he needs to stop. If one cannot recognize and react to problem signs and just stubbornly continues to do the same thing, bad things often happen.

He is modifying brass and then ignoring danger signs by continuing to blow primers "one after another".

He needs to take a big step back.
 
The ONLY thing a drill needs to be used for is trimming, or maybe if a person has that Lyman chamfering/deburring kit that goes in a drill and that's it!
 
I have a flash hole gage, it measures the diameter of the flash hole. Unless the reloader is in the habit of measuring the diameter of the flash hole before firing it is a waste of time measuring the diameter after firing.

A disciplined reloader near jwrowland77 uniforms his flash holes, WHY? Just in case it makes a difference, I gave him a flash hole gage for a different reason.

'The first signs of pressure', after that there is a long list of reasons 'it' can not be done. Most have to wait until the primer pocket will not hold a primer, I have fired cases once that would not hold a primer for the second loading and the brass was not defective. If the primer pocket expands the flash hole expands and the case head sxpands and the case head gets shorter form the top of the cup above the web to the case head etc..

If the reloader near jwrowland77 wants to uniform his flash holes I understand why.

F. Guffey
 
Blowing primers one after the other

Blowing primers one after the other:

Gas cutting on the bolt face can come from primers unseating, to cut the bolt face something must go wrong with the primer. A shot case, that would be a case that is too short from the shoulder to the case head to fit the chamber from the shoulder of the chamber to the bolt face.

The primer is unseating, it is possible the load is reduced, there is enough pressure to seal the chamber with the case body but not enough pressure to stretch the case between the case head and case body.

F. Guffey
 
F.Guffey, I generally uniform my flash holes as well, but it seems the gentleman enlarges them above that unless I'm reading it wrong.

I'll be getting with the reloader near me more often now since I'm having to more or less retire due to some disabilities I acquired while in the military. I'll have to ask him about it.
 
Take your garden hose out ( the one that has a variable spray nozzle on the end) and start watering the flowers. Press the handle half way and note the spray pattern and the water velocity. Press the handle further, to three quarters, and note the spray pattern and velocity (volume, too).

The volume goes up, the velocity goes down, and the spray pattern is more concentrated.

There is a reason the ppc and 220 swift cases have smaller diameter flash holes!

murf
 
Would like to see a picture of the blown primers. Is it actually the cup or is leaking from the brass seal?

Enlarging the primers hole is a bad thing. It will allow higher pressure to get to the cup faster as the original size works as a choke to limit the pressure rise/curve.

I would also ask did he work up the loads from min or just jumped to mid range.

If he as a different Lot of primers (or different mfg) to try I would try that beside the test loads previous stated.
 
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

You already spent quite a bit of time with this guy. Apparently he isn't interested in listening to good advice. I wouldn't waste any more time with him.
Unless he changes his attitude, he is an accident waiting to happen.

OYE
 
Yepper, those responses are exactly in line with what my small mind would have expected to hear. But some young men have ego's that grow at such a high rate, that they must continually adjust their hat size daily.

My oldest son knows little if anything at this juncture about reloading, so him asking me, was simply an attempt to try and help a fellow soldier, as well a very newly acquired friend, which I was more than happy to oblige.

I think at this point, it's best that I keep my distance, as this gentleman will very obviously have to learn from his own mistakes, and to that, I can see a few more in his future, not to mention new bolts. His parting remarks to me was, "I'll be switching to Federal primers" and that, "I knew better than to buy those crappy CCI' 34's and 41's, I half expected this to happen".

Thanks, I just wanted to reinforce what I already deduced was the problem, which you gentleman have accomplished. I did however mention to him about joining THR, so maybe we'll be seeing a new member asking inquiring about "Blown Primers" in the near future. Either that, or, "does anyone know where I can buy new bolts in the bulk".

GS
 
Oh Lord ....
Soft-cup Federal primers w/ a free-floating firing pin in a gas-gun.

Luckily the AR bolt design is far less likely to have the firing pin protrude until it's fully rotated that the Garand designs...
But SlamFires are usually a one-time good deal.
 
That's funny considering CCI's have some of the harder cups.

Federal are the softest. I wouldn't be surprised if you were told in the future that he's had some pierced primers and now his BCG isn't functioning.
 
If he will not listen there is nothing you can do but let him make his mistakes and ruin his firearms. Just don't shoot his reloads or anybody else.
 
Decapping pins in reloading dies usually come in two sizes, small .061" and large .071".

For a number of years now, American Rifle ammunition manufacturers have pretty much standardized on a .080" primer flash hole for Rifle ammunition even in smaller Rifle calibers like .223 Rem.

There are some European rifle ammo manufacturers, NPA, S&B, PPU, Privi, Ingman, Hirtenberger and others that make Rifle ammunition with small flash holes, .055"-.060".

This will cause dies with large decapping pins to break or get stuck in the smaller flash hole.

Over the years, I have had my share of stuck or broken pins. When I get these brands of cases to reload, I make sure I decap with a small pinnned universal decapper.

I then take a .078" drill (or a #45 drill bit) and drill out the flash hole to a .080" standard hole. Other reloaders do this.

Here's an old High road thread discussing it:http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=422109

I've been doing this for years with rifle brass and have never had an issue.

I will agree that going larger than .080" would not be recommended.

Here's a reference article discussing the different flash hole sizes. http://ballistictools.com/articles/flashhole.php

Just today, I was helping a friend with some 243 Winchester brass that he broke his decapping pin on. The brass was "Hotshot" made in Serbia by PPU. It had a small flash hole. To avoid this in the future, I'll drill out the flash holes to .078" for him.
 
I feel like this kid is going to get a hard lesson in why he should listen to his elders. As said before, you can lead them to water but cannot make them drink.
 
No, I'm done with him. He has made it crystal clear that he knows what he's doing, it's just crappy primers causing his problem, and we have lovely beach front property in Tucson.

I tried, I can do no more, other than steering clear of him at the range. Oh, and I advised my Son to not shoot his reloads, ever!

GS
 
Enlarging the flash holes can be a fairly common practice when loading down mouse loads in the 308 (or similar) using fast pistol powders and probably a dacron filler if the powder is not bulky enough. Works just fine in that application, though I have never really gotten any better performance or consistency enough to warrant doing it.

BUT these cases NEVER get used in full power loadings. Just don't do it .

I have done tons of subsonics in large cases, gallery loads, fast powder sub loads, and many mouse fart loads. I have done enough that I consider myself competent. I suggest you tell your friend about the proper applications of enlarging the flash hole. That may get him to listen to your reasoning.

Flash hole enlarging IS indeed an option, just not an option with his "normal" loadings. That might let him off the hook ya know? That way he won't be doing something that is "wrong," just incorrectly applying it... lol
 
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