Article: Carrying in Church

Good for them. And good for the news story. The publicity that the congregation is protected likely served to even further lower the chances of an armed intrusion.

This is a good article about the perils of gun free zones

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2015/06/18/gun-free-zones-easy-target-for-killers.html

The publicity that the congregation is protected likely served to even further lower the chances of an armed intrusion.

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Except for those maniacs who don't care, or plan on taking their own lives at the end of it.

1911 guy said:

Good for them. And good for the news story.

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+1. Good for them.

valnar said:

Except for those maniacs who don't care, or plan on taking their own lives at the end of it.

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Worry over that sure isn't a reason to go unarmed. I'd rather have a fighting chance against a maniac than no chance at all.

What I meant was having the church members armed may not have changed the fact he went in there guns blazing, only that it might have ended sooner.

There was a similar article about the members of a Miami, Florida synagogue being armed and training regularly for such an event.
With so many attacks occurring at houses of worship, it's not surprising that not everyone is content to rely on God's protection alone.

Valnar, it seems that, since 1950, only two so-called "mass shootings" have taken place in venues not posted, or known to be, "gun-free" zones.

Mass murderers, particular those with a political or hate-based agenda, are, in essence, terrorists in that they wish to inflict as much death and destruction as possible. That becomes far less likely if they encounter armed resistance early in the encounter. The fat that they have been choosing known "gun-free" zones indicate they understand that.

In Charleston, the shooter did indeed appear to have an agenda. Reports indicate he shot all but one person present, intending that person to "live to tell the tale" (a couple of others survived their wounds.)

Also, he did not commit suicide afterwards; he remains very much alive. His own death was clearly not part of the plan.

It must take an atheist to find the irony in taking about carrying weapons in a CHRISTian church.

What I meant was having the church members armed may not have changed the fact he went in there guns blazing, . . . .

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What I have read – and to me this makes him even worse – he did not go into the church with guns blazing, but was welcomed in and sat through an hour and a half of Bible study before he began his destruction. They were so nice to him that he almost did not go through with his plan.

only that it might have ended sooner.

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That I agree with.

It must take an atheist to find the irony in taking about carrying weapons in a CHRISTian church.

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I am not religious, but I do not see any irony. The early Pilgrims brought their guns to church and many modern churches encourage their members to come armed; many churches even have organized security. There is nothing that I know of that requires Christians to not defend themselves.

Just for fun, Google [church security].

g.willikers said:

not everyone is content to rely on God's protection alone.

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God gave me the good fortune to be born in the USA where I can own and legally conceal a pistol; he also gave me the innate desire to protect myself against harm.

Therefore, God doesn't want me to be a helpless victim at the "mercy" of a vicious attacker (IMO) and graciously afforded me the means to acquire a Glock (19/23/32) loaded with premium HST.

It is my responsibility to carry this gift of protection.

There are parts of the world where Christian Churches are all but burned out and their congregations have gone to ground.
There are two great powers in this world, good and evil. Spiritual people will believe this power transcends man alone and that there is a great struggle that has been ongoing since creation. Others think it resides only in the heart of man. Either way I see no irony in the spiritual defending themselves.

Did not Christ's disciples carry swords?

In the Garden of Gethsemane Peter was admonished by Christ to put up his sword because it wasn't the time for such actions. Christ was certainly capable of defending himself but He knew there was a greater purpose at hand. But Jesus did not tell his followers not to carry a sword. He did tell them not to have anything of value with them which may have covered the sword but there certainly wasn't a big deal made of it.

I have to look back to Ecclesiastes 3 where the Bible says, "To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:". The chapter goes on to include that there is a time for peace and a time of war. I try to let Christ lead in my life when it comes to things like this. If I was a black person living in a time of racism I would likely worry about my safety more than I do as a white person. But all Christians are living under persecution by secular forces. I don't think we have to surrender and become martyrs but sometimes it happens that way. I just don't think we have to make it easy.

Cee Zee

Thanks for that very clear explanation.

To the OP, thanks for posting that. It's my home town, but I missed that piece on the news. I don't watch that channel, maybe I should.

Irony in providing for the safety and security of loved ones in church?

Do you also expect all religious people to drive with their eyes closed? Because, after all, you seem to think we are not responsible for anything. Or can I claim to be a nuclear engineer with no training because I am also a christian? Because, according to your reasoning, nothing bad can happen.

The bottom line is that we live in a screwed up world. Not taking measures to ensure the safety of yourself and loved ones is silly.

Sorry if I've taken this too far off the rails, but this absence of logic is the same foundation the antis use when constructing their specious arguments.

I agree with you 1911 guy but I actually believe in the power of Christ to protect us. He made decide not to do so but if He doesn't allow it then it won't happen. He has His plans and they are greater than we can conceive. Not that I am going to pull a Shirley McClaine and drive down a mountain road with my eyes closed as she claimed to be able to do. Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God. I actually believe that could be done but I'm not going to try it. It's pretty stupid and Shirley didn't even give credit to God for what happened. She believes in some aliens or whatever. Again it might happen but I sure ain't gonna try it. I'm not going to try to walk on water either but I believe it happened. But I do pray and my prayers are often answered. Like the time I bowed my head in church and silently prayed that my dad would go to the altar and be saved. When I raised my head he was already half way down the aisle heading for the altar.

What's a

church? I carry everywhere. The post office, the bank, hospital and doctor's office, Walmart, Kroger, gas station, restaurant, etc. Where I go my .44 goes.

Garrobo said:

church? I carry everywhere. The post office, the bank, hospital and doctor's office, Walmart, Kroger, gas station, restaurant, etc. Where I go my .44 goes.

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Mayhaps you should rethink that one, or at least reconsider talking about it on a public forum.

I don't carry in church because it's against the law here in Utah, at least for the church I attend. There are also 3 LEOs that I attend with that are always armed. Do I like it? Not really and I'd love to see the law or policy changed. I've voiced my opinion about it both to the Governor, my state rep, and my senator along with the church leaders. I doubt either one will change, but I don't see it as a doctrinal issue either.

I carry at every church activity that are outside an actual house-of-worship (as defined by Utah Law). I'm an NRA instructor and I go shooting with all of the Boy Scouts in the units that are linked to our congregation and I'm sure that all of them know that I carry, even on BSA activities. That's frowned upon, but I don't plan on changing that, especially when we're camping in an area that has bears.

Matt

I am a Christian and take it seriously.

Christianity is NOT a pacifist religion. There are some groups (denominations or congregations) that are, but I find no Biblical support for the concept as standard operating procedure.

After the Lord Who Commands Armies gave us John Browning, smokeless powder, and machinist technology, I find it absurd to ignore His gifts.

Cees Zee mentions the interplay between Jesus and Peter in the Garden of Gethsemane (see Matthew 26:47-56, Mark 14:43-52, Luke 22:47-53 and John 18:1-11). The reason Jesus didn't allow Peter to resist is explained in John 19:11; “Put your sword back into its sheath! Am I not to drink the cup that the Father has given me?” In other words, Jesus is allowing Himself to be arrested according to His plan. This is not intended as a 'commandment' in the same general sense as "love thy neighbor".

In Luke 22:35-38, Jesus is briefing his disciples - followers - about living life without Jesus present. Essentially, Jesus tells them to be prepared for any and all circumstances. He specifically mentions money, clothing and a 'sword'.

Being armed in church may offend certain people or groups (including lawmakers) but I find no evidence it offends the Lord.

wild cat mccane said:

It must take an atheist to find the irony in taking about carrying weapons in a CHRISTian church.

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No irony ay all. Read a Bible.

IIRC, it was the Catholic Church that originated the 'no carrying in church' taboo very early in it's history. Interestingly enough, an episode of Vikings provided an example of why this is not a wise policy. In the episode, the Viking group attacks Winchester while services are being held. When they get to the doors, there is a pile of swords up against the wall next to them.Needless to say, the Vikings impose their will on the congregation, taking the loot they hastily ditched under the altar, and kill the Bishop, and a few others, though sparing most of them. (To make the main character of the show look merciful, I'd guess.)

i carry in church. good gives me choices and through those choices anyone i know or that is around me may be impacted. I will defend my right and my family's right to live as long as it is an option and i do not think god will look down on me for doing so. Also which is most important, god will forgive me of sin and welcome me into his kingdom. so if i defend myself to the point of a gun i shall ask for forgiveness.