.30/06 brass; Norma vs. Lapua, which is better?

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GooseGestapo

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Question for those who have used both...
I know they're the best, which of the two do you prefer?

I had outstanding performance from some Norma brass back in mid'70s to mid '80's. It was from factory ammo. Didn't know why my '06 's performed so well. After three decades of using range pick-up's, I'm convinced that it wasn't just good barrels/bullets/powder giving eiry good accuracy.
I don't "NEED", '06 brass, but want to load some for my Garands for competition use, and want the very best!
I recently shot a CMP match and saw a lot of Lapua, brass and loaded ammo.
Price isn't a concern. I only plan to get 100 pieces for dedicated match use.
 
They're both quality brass....saying that though, I love my Lapua brass. I've never used Norma brass, but I can say, that you won't be disappointed with Lapua.
 
Lapua is of higher quality, but Norma has a redeeming value; It is the lightest weight .30-06 case with the highest case capacity. With my 2900fps 190SMK load, I reach that velocity with 60.7gr of RL-22 with Lapua brass, while Norma brass requires 61.4gr of RL-22. Hope that helps.

Don
 
I wouldn't use Lapua brass in a Garand. After its first firing, it'll be much less accurate than when first fired. Such was life with the best marksmen on military teams reloading fired cases from both M14 and M1 super accurate ones.

Garand bolt faces are typically more out of square with the chamber axis than commercial bolt guns. That makes their fired case heads too much out of square. And that causes more muzzle axis angular spread than new cases. The most accurate match .30-06 Garands would shoot commercial match ammo into about 1.25 MOA at 600 yards. The best their reloaded cases would do was about 2 MOA.

I doubt you'll benefit from Lapua or Norma cases unless your Garand already shoots about 1.5 MOA at 600 properly tested. Then only with their first firing. Garand cases should only be reloaded 3 or 4 times and when their fired case shoulders are set back no more than .003" in full length sizing dies.
 
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Thanks for the input.
Bart B., you think mil spec brass would be any better from Garand?
 
If you're referring to MIL SPEC once fired cases from Garands, no.

The best cases ever loaded for .30-06 Garands in the heyday of their use in competition up through the early 1960's was Western Cartridge Company match brass loaded with 180-gr. match bullets. It was commercially available and WCC sold a lot of it to both military teams and civilians. It was also loaded by WCC then sold in white boxes in retail outlets and for the military teams. But even it didn't do all that well when its once fired cases were resized then reloaded. Some people pulled the 172-gr match bullet from M72 match ammo then replaced it with a Sierra FMJBT 180-gr match bullet and that had better accuracy than the NM lots of M72.

Starting in the early 1960's, even the 7.62 NATO chambered M14 and M1 rifles shot new cases more accurate than any reloaded once fired ones from these rifles. M118 match ammo lots that wasn't too accurate had their bullets pulled then replaced with Sierra match 168's, 180's or its IMR4895 powder replaced with IMR4320 under 190's; all were exceptionally accurate; much better than the M118. The best lots of commercial .308 Win. match ammo as well as hand loaded new Federal or Winchester cases would shoot about 2/3rds MOA at 600 yards in these rifles. Reloading those cases never shot under 1 MOA. at 600; the typical test range for them.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I don't think USSR's load of 60.7gr of RL-22 with Lapua brass or Norma brass with 61.4gr of RL-22 under a Sierra 190 should be used in a 30 caliber Garand. I think its peak pressure is (nor has been properly measured by him) way, way over the safe limit of about 60,000 psi (50,000 cup) and it's port pressure in a Garand will surely bend its op rod way too much.
 
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I have a supply of 1963 7.62 MM Match (XM118 Lot LC 12010) Bullet 173 Grs Velocity 2550 FPS. I've shot it in a M1 rebuilt by Clint Fowler, Springfield M1A- Super Match and a Remington 40X.

That particular lot (should say the examples of that lot are exceptionally accurate) was not problematic in regards to accuracy. I still have 18 (20) round boxes of it.
 
Brass aside for a moment, some of the best starting load data I have seen for the M1 Garand has been:

MASTER PO'S M1 loads (Courtesy of the NRA)

and also The Hornady 9th edition handbook of cartridge reloading which has a section dedicated to service rifle loadings, including M1 Garand loadings. A partial listing which includes the 30-06 M1 Garand loadings can be seen here. Which loadings and bullets will work best in your specific rifle remains to be seen but at least the suggested load data keeps you in a safe pressure range and curve for your M1 Garand. Start low and work loads up and see what you get.

Brass? I am also in the shoot it three or four times and then I trash it in M1 Garand. While Lapua and Norma do make great brass I also do not see it as wise for the M1 Garand. About 20 years ago when I was more into it I finally just started buying 500 cases at a time of Winchester or Remington in bulk and using that. Simply because it was reasonable in cost and readily available. I could also get repeatable results.

Beyond the powder suggestions Bart has pretty well covered brass. :)

Ron
 
On a side note, while days past have yielded some terrific match GI ammo which many of us cling to and reference is when it's gone, it's gone. This does nothing for the new shooter embarking on an M1 Garand chambered in 30-06. I just figure it is more important and practical for the new shooter to develop and work up loads for his or her own rifle.

Ron
 
The best .30-06 arsenal match ammo shot about 2.0 to 2.5 MOA (12 to 15 inches) at 600 yards. That's the reality of ammo with a mean radius for shot holes from group center of 2.2 to 2.6 inches which was what the NM lots would produce. Their test barrels were in M1903 or Remington 700 receivers mounted in a Mann rest. Arsenal specs were 3.5 inches mean radius for match ammo which meant average size of 10-shot groups would be about 7 inches but a few bad rounds in a box of 20 easily opened them up quite a bit. Biggest problem was the 172-gr. FMJBT match bullet; if replaced with a Sierra 180 or 168, they shot a lot more accurate. The DCM used to show test targets at the Nationals with 270 bullet holes in them shot with that year's National Match lot. Some people were amazed that they were as big as they were. Especially when the best of the .30-06 bolt guns' ammo back then would test all day long inside 6 to 7 inches at 600 yards with proper reloads.

Back in its day, people would load Garand .30-06 match stuff with 47 to 48 grains of IMR4064 under a 180-gr. Sierra SBT hunting bullet or FMJBT match bullet and get better accuracy than the M72 match ammo produced. 48 to 49 grains of IMR4064 under a Sierra 165-gr. SBT or 168 HPMK match bullet also shot more accurate than LC match ammo. But all with new cases. I doubt any other load with available components will do any better.
 
Bart B.
You do know that the "Garand" matches are shot at 200yds?

My CMP "Special" had no problem holding the 10ring at the match at Talladega on 6/6/15.
Both my Garands easily shoot under 2moa. I was just wondering if the thicker Lapua brass had any advantage, and if either had better longevity.
I've got a large quantity of various commercial brass, and several hundred mixed LC and TC mil-surp cases.
Didn't know if brass made significant difference. Bullets Do!

I also know Garands are limited to mid range powders. Mine like IMR4064 better than either H or IMR4895. I used some Hornady 155gr A-max over 48.0gr IMR4064 in Federal brass in match. However, in practice at the range two day previous, I actually shot better with 150gr Hornady FMJ's in mil-surp brass. With either, if it wasn't in 10ring, it was MY fault, not gun or ammo.
The days of CMP or NRA providing ammo are over. Rules allow "any safe ammo" I couldn't get an opinion if that included cast bullet ammo... I have an especially accurate load using H4895 and cast. It cycles the actions reliably, and runs 2moa. I shot the $.$ jacketed to avoid any conflicts.

I don't think my bolt guns would handle USSR's RL22 load. Back about '00, I worked up to 60.0gr of RL22 and 180gr Speer for my MkX Mauser. Velocity was over 2,800fps, accuracy ~3/4" @ 100yds. It was all either rifle or I could handle. It was/is a compressed load. Recoil is like .300 mag, as are ballistics.
 
I know that CMP matches are shot through 600 yards; that's what you mentioned. I also know that some of them are shot at only 200 yards; the Garand one for example.

A silhouette of me shooting one was on the John C. Garand Match T-shirt for the 1999 one at the Nationals:

4222198330_337054734f_z.jpg

I'd like to see someone's data using Quickload for 60 grains of RL22 under a 190 in a .30-06 case. I can only imagine what peak pressure is. That aside, a 36" long barrel may shoot one out at 2900 fps with normal peak pressure with a slow powder.

Longevity for .30-06 cases in Garands is mainly controlled by minimal full length sizing setting fired case shoulder back no more than .003" but you'll need a case headspace gauge to measure them.
 
I don't think USSR's load of 60.7gr of RL-22 with Lapua brass or Norma brass with 61.4gr of RL-22 under a Sierra 190 should be used in a 30 caliber Garand. I think its peak pressure is (nor has been properly measured by him) way, way over the safe limit of about 60,000 psi (50,000 cup) and it's port pressure in a Garand will surely bend its op rod way too much.

Yes, everyone knows the load I referenced was not a Garand load, since you simply cannot drive a 190gr bullet out of a Garand at 2900fps. It was merely used as an example in answer to the OP's question: ".30/06 brass; Norma vs. Lapua, which is better?". While the peak pressure of the load is at or just below 60k psi, the port pressure would surely be enough to bend an M1 Garand's oprod in no time flat.

Don
 
Don, what brand of pressure transducer system did you use to verify that load's average peak pressure?

I ask because I've fired arsenal proof loads in Garands whose fired case appearance was indistinguishable from service loads. I trust you're not estimating peak pressure by visual or dimensional inspection.
 
They're both way over priced, quality, brass.
"...using QuickLoad..." WHAG at best.
2900 fps would be over max. Alliant says 2,721 fps is max for a 180. 2499 for a 200 at 58 grains max. 190's are .300 Win Mag bullet anyway.
 
Sunray, people were taking big game and winning long range matches with 190 and 200 grain bullets in .30-06 and .308 Win rifles long before the .300 Win Mag was introduced in 1963.
 
Alliant/Speer data is with Winchester brass, CCI primers, and from a 22"bbl, an old worn one at that. See Speer#17 manual. Only their RL17 data is from Federal brass and Federal primers, and 24"bbl.

Also, 62.0gr with 180gr for only 2,721fps.
With Norma brass, I believe USSR when he says he did it. Not sure my Colt Lt. Rifle would digest it.
Maybe later this summer; I have a few pieces of Norma '06, and several boxes of Hornady 190gr BTSPT-IL, and RL22.
 
My use is limited to some .243 brass, I traded for, in the early 90's. I had never owned that much good brass. I compared it to all the regulars as well as, LC Match, Norma and later Hornady Match and some ohers. Fifty or more pieces of each and the Lapua is most consistent, worked the best (didn't harden or get brittle) and is still being reloaded, today. Even knowing this, I still can't bring myself to buy it. Mostly, because I am blessed with much brass and a frugal spirit.
 
Don, what brand of pressure transducer system did you use to verify that load's average peak pressure?

I ask because I've fired arsenal proof loads in Garands whose fired case appearance was indistinguishable from service loads. I trust you're not estimating peak pressure by visual or dimensional inspection.

Bart,

You are just bound and determined to trash talk anybody that has a good word to say about the '06. Anyways, here goes:

Lyman 49th Edition lists a 60.5gr load of RL22 behind a Sierra 190gr MatchKing as generating 48,700 CUP. My load is 60.7gr of RL22. If you want to make the case that 0.2gr more powder takes it from a moderate pressure load to the equivalent of an arsenal proof load, have at it. Otherwise, take it up with Lyman. Again, this is not a Garand load. Best wishes.

Don
 
To answer the original question, Lapua is widely recognized as the gold standard for brass. It lasts longer and is of higher quality than most other brands. I have nothing but good things to say about Lapua.
 
Don, I think you’re making way too many assumptions.

I’m not bashing anyone’s use of a .30-06. Did I bash the OP by giving him favorite load data match winners and record setters used? I’ve taken game and won awards in matches shooting one.

I’m challenging your claim of 2900 fps with a 190 over 60.8 grains of RL22 in a .30-06 case with 60,000 psi peak pressure if you’re using that 26" Kreiger barrel you mentioned in another post.

No way am I claiming the that 0.2gr more powder takes it from a moderate pressure load to the equivalent of an arsenal proof load at about 72,000 psi (65,000 cup). I never said that, but that’s what you’ve construed. Only that I’ve shot proof loads (component details not given) in Garands whose cases looked virtually the same as normal loads to show that visual signs of pressure are inaccurate.

You’re not answering my question about the pressure measuring system you used. You quote a Lyman load of 60 grains of RL22 under a 190 producing 48,700 cup; but that was in their test barrel (whose, as well as yours, bore, groove and chamber dimensions are unknown) and I hope a decent crusher gauge system, not your barrel whose pressure measuring system you’ve not revealed. It would have helped if you would have mentioned the muzzle velocity Lyman got with their load. I think you’re guessing what your peak pressure is. And your chronograph may be broken or set up wrong.

Comparing Alliant’s data for a .30-06 with 58 grains of RL22 under a 200-gr. bullet producing 2499 fps from a 24" barrel, 60.X grains of RL22 under a 190 would probably push it out somewhere in the 2600 fps range. Your 2900 fps claim with 60.X grains in your .30-06 just doesn’t add up if it’s really at SAAMI spec average peak pressure of 60,000 psi as measured with a pressure transducer on your barrel.

But you’re free to assume any pressure level you want if your 190's really left at 2900 fps. That’s easier than measuring it.
 
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