Ravens?

Got a hankering for one myself a few months back. Only one I saw was at a gun show in December, but the guy wanted $100 for it.

I saw a couple of Bauer .25s at that same show, and set my sights on getting one of them instead, but not that day (picked up a Bulgarian Makarov instead at that show.)

A couple of weeks back, I picked up a Taurus PT-25 I came across, then, only a few days later, found a Bauer for a good price, and grabbed that as well. So, that pretty much satisfies my .25ACP crave.

I can see why you want a Raven "just to have", though. I have a Jennings J22 I got in 1987, and it's always been a neat little pistol for what it is.

Raven, Jennings, Bryco, etc....you must have had a unique one to be that reliable. Not bashing, just our experience with them is such that we would not take one in trade at the shop. Sterling was about the same.
Now, you take a Beretta Bobcat, Tomcat, Minx and so on, there are guns that are reliable...once you find the ammo they like.

The Raven dates back to just after the Gun Control Act of 1968. Back then, AFAIK, there were no longer any domestic manufacturers of 25 caliber automatics; they were all foreign guns. (Colt was putting its name on a 25 automatic made by Astra in Spain.)

When the GCA of '68 made it impossible to import these guns any more, the Raven appeared. It kept the price down by being made mainly of die cast zinc alloy with other parts made of aluminum and other easy-to-machine metals. Only the barrel, breech face, and springs were made of steel, I think.

The Raven people did a decent job by designing the gun from scratch to use these materials, rather than trying to reproduce a steel gun in zinc. At least at one time, the Ravens had a decent reputation for working well when brand new, although I think accuracy beyond 10 feet or so much have always been dicey. They wore quickly because of the soft materials, so I hardly ever saw anyone try to sell a used one. Basically, though, the Raven founded a whole new firearms industry in the United States, although it took a while for anyone to follow its example - most of its competitors tried importing foreign parts and making just enough here (usually the frame or receiver) to qualify their gun as "Made in USA". This did not seem to work out as well.

Remarkably, the Raven people did a better job than Smith & Wesson. S&W attempted to capitalize on the 25 caliber vacuum with their .22LR Model 61 "Escort", which was a strange design, not a terribly good gun, and was out of production after a few years. Raven production lasted 25-30 years.

I have not seen a new Raven for around 10 years or so. I think they finally got driven off the market by similar cheap guns that were better looking, like the Jennings 22, or in bigger calibers, like most of the Davis/Bryco/Jennings/Lorcin lines.

I think at the end the Raven may have been made by the same people who made the Phoenix HP-22 and HP-25, which were more elaborate and more modern looking guns.

BTW, the whole story of Raven/Jennings/Bryco/Cobray/Jimenez argues to me that tariff protection can cause industries to shift back to the United States, if there is the national will to do so.

I shot a .25 Raven once about 3 or 4 years ago. It was reliable for the handful of mags I shot through it. For such a crappy little pistol, the trigger was fairly decent and it was surprisingly accurate, despite the fact I was focusing more on avoiding slide bite than actually hitting the target.

Fishbed77, I'm guessing by the four asterisks in your post that you misspelled the word "shot"...

I bought a Jennings .22 in 1967. Not a good year. It fired 3 rounds and quit. The store took it back! They couldn't get it to work either. Never experimented with the cheap stuff again.

Just curious, moxie: 1967 must be a typo, because it's too early for a Jennings. What year did you really mean?

And yeah, all these guns were of HIGHLY variable quality. Some people got good ones and were delighted; others got lemons and swore them off forever (wise choice, IMO). The exception to that seems to be Lorcin; NOBODY ever seemed to get a good Lorcin.

Mine is put up in the (SOCK DRAWER) unless I spelled it wrong we all know were it is? Great history of the gun itself M. and thanks! If the B. 380 pico ever gets the 32 replacement barrel il be reloading both .

Raven were good guns for your opponent to have.

Lousy sights, lousy trigger, lousy grips, lousy cartridge, not much of a safety, not drop safe, etc...

Their redeeming features were a) small, b) they usually were reliable (but not as reliable as a Beretta 950.)

Deaf

During the time of their production, several notable gun writers tested them, and even recommended them as a last-ditch Police weapon. I can remember the articles, and also Police carrying them. Oddly, none of them ever seemed to encounter all of the issues people who weren't alive then talk about.

I also own Beretta 950 BS guns in both .25 ACP, and .22 Short. Neither is exactly a great gun. The little .22 Short gun is extremely finicky about ammunition. The .25 ACP gun has five magazines, all made by Beretta, and all of them disassemble themselves after firing a couple of magazines full. I've had the same issue with a Model 21A in .25 ACP, too.

The Tomcat, in .32 ACP, has had a long and storied history of cracking it's slides, as well.

My Raven is still shooting, as is my Jennings J22. Worse, I also own a Sterling Model 400S. A bigger gun, it's one of the MOST reliable .380's I've owned. That includes Beretta Model 84Bs, S&W Bodyguards, and a Walther PPK.

Are there better guns out there, build-wise? Oh, certainly, to include some that I've mentioned. However, that doesn't mean that the Raven, Jennings, or others are all POS. Seems funny that so many people over the years have owned them, used them, and are still alive after hearing all of the "experts" weigh in.

The first handgun I ever bought once I was old enough. Cost $40 NIB. I fired about 50 rounds through it when I first got it and then it sat. I sold it to a co-worker about 20 years later for $30 who thought it was a .25 caliber Glock and hammered a couple hundred rounds through it until it broke and then blamed me for selling him a crappy gun. It was a decent (for the price) cheap gun in a weak caliber to shoot a little and let collect dust in a drawer.

Funny thing, my buddy pulled one out at the range yesterday though he didn't have any ammo for it.

Bright nickle finish, surprisingly good looking with hardly any wear. Surprisingly heavy for what it was.

Monac,

I know the internet history says it ain't so but I did buy a Jennings .22 in '67, or possibly '68 or '69. But no later because I had gone into the AF by then. It was a Jennings. Bought new in Mass. if that helps.

Well, I was definitely "alive then" and working in a gun shop whose owner didn't believe in sending guns back if they didn't work. So I got the task of trying to fix those cheap little guns. Since we sold a lot of them, it is probably true that not all were defective or at least not all came back. But they came back too often to be considered as either well made or reliable; I considered them junk. I have said and will say again that the designs were not bad; made of good material and with good QC at the factory, they would probably have been good guns. But then they would have cost more than $19.

Jim

My biggest concern about them was the sheet metal safety. If one carried it with a round in the chamber that safety could seemingly move about at will.

Some one once drew up a cartoon Raven, it may have been in old Fatman's Gun Tests magazine from back before the newsletter, that I though would have been cute to actually make, but for the need of federal tax stamps.

Billed as the ultimate survivalist weapon it was a Raven with Man from Uncle stock and mid point suppressed long barrel with m-16 flash hider, 25 round Taylor drum magazine, and scope. Just the thing for Idiot Kooklakin or Neopolitan Solar.

My favorite Raven story.....back during the Gainesville (UF) Student Murders I was at a shop getting the owners to include a business card offering free gun safety classes from my club in the box of each gun sale. At the time Gainesville had a three day wait on hand guns. Joe student was getting a Raven as I talked to the lady owner of the shop. Once he found out he had to leave the gun, take the receipt to the Sheriff, wait three days, return to Sheriff for a stamp on the receipt noting it had been on the clerks desk three days cooling off, then bring the stamped receipt back to get the Raven he asked if there was a wait on rifles. When told no he cancelled the sale and bought a semi auto AKM with three mags and 100 rounds of Chinese steel cored 7.62x39 ammo.

I followed him out and spoke with him long enough to find he was buying the gun so his live in girl friend, with no gun experience, would have protection in their apartment while he worked nights. See how well gun control works? Wouldn't you have loved knowing there was a scared and skittish person in the next apartment or three apartments down with an AK loaded with AP ammo instead of a Raven?

"we're from the government. we're here to help."

-kBob

Best $60 I ever spent in 1982! I still carry it once in a while on occasion, when the 38 is just too big. Replaced a broken firing pin several years ago.

TimSr, could I ask how the safety catch on your Raven works? Is it a small lever that locks the slide when on Safe, or is it a horizontally sliding button? Apparently that was one thing the Raven company kept tinkering with. Also, did you make the wooden grips?

Yours must be the oldest Raven in captivity!

Ravens were pretty good little pistols, especially considering their low price; poor people deserve defense too. The cartridge is weak but they were probably the best that many could afford. I've owned several and they all functioned well until/unless they were dropped. I've got a couple:

I see the wood grips were factory, scaevola. And you have two of the safety catch variations! If you want a complete collection, you'll need the rare early type.

The first Raven safety catch was arranged so that pulling back the slide on the pistol automatically put it on "Safe". It was kind of finicky, so they changed it early on. It's described in J.B. Wood's book "Troubleshooting Your Handgun". (Even though that book was published in the 1970's, I would still recommend it to anyone who is curious about how guns work, and how they can be repaired.)

PS - Thanks for putting up pictures, scaevola. Guns like the Raven are the modern day equivalent of the pistols turned out in Spain before the Spanish Civil War. People are beginning to collect those Spanish guns, and I bet they will collect Ravens and such someday in the future.

Best $60 I ever spent in 1982!

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Dang you got raped back then... I was only paying 35-45 for the "Ring of fire" guns back then...

and I bet they will collect Ravens and such someday in the future.

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The future is already here....as there are a number of folks who collect such. I have a fair-size collection of zamak pocket guns myself.
There is even an entire forum dedicated to collecting and shooting the zamak wonders.

Here is one of my Ravens with a 15-round mag in case of zombie mice attacks;

The first Raven safety catch was arranged so that pulling back the slide on the pistol automatically put it on "Safe". It was kind of finicky, so they changed it early on.

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If you closely in my photo you'll see that I removed the safety as the slide would occasionally grab it and pull it forward in the on position. I never trusted it to carry a round in the chamber anyways.

I am a fan of mouss guns and own a few including including a couple of Ravens. I dont consider them serious defensive weapons but they may do in a pinch or as Skeeter Skelton said you may be able to bluff your way out. My Ravens have proven reliable. Ive put a few hundred rounds through one of them and it doesnt seem to be ready to break down.

I find it amusing people being critical of crappy triggers and sights. What do you expect for $35 (what I paid for my first Raven in 1987)? The trigger and sights will do nicely at across the room ranges. Inexpensive
handguns have a place. Poor people have a right to defend themselves.