10mm the equivalent of the 41 - sheer BUFFOONERY

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jski

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Guys, I was minding my own business while listening to the Military Arms Channel when low and behold I heard Tim utter sheer nonsense. He was reviewing Ruger’s new 10mm revolver when he spoke the indefensible, claiming the 10mm to be EQUIVALENT to the 41 mag ... in some form or fashion.

Tim, if you’re out there, there’s no world in which the 10mm is in the same league as the 41, let alone equivalent to the 41. As a matter of fact Tim, the 10mm would have trouble matching the 357 both with full house loads.

But I searched and this nonsense is replete on the internet. Where did this come from?
 
With today's factory loads you have a point. Please keep in mind though that the original 10mm load (Norma) was a 200gr bullet at 1200fps from a 5" barrel. Compare that to a 210gr JHP .41Mag factory load from a 4" barrel which was the practical length for LEOs to carry. Then the two are very close. Also, a long time ago before chronographs became inexpensive, therefore common, US ammo makers were sometimes 'optimistic' in their reported velocities.
 
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You have to REALLY cherry-pick your load examples and squint your eyes really hard to even say they are equal with a straight face. Only the heaviest 10mm loads are comparable to only the lightest .41Mag loads. The 10mm simply does not have the capacity to compete with the .41, with any bullet weight and where the 10mm is topped out, the .41 is just getting started. Top loads from Buffalo Bore in the 10mm include a 220gr cast at 1200fps. The .41Mag, 265's at 1350fps with a much larger meplat and that is not the top end.
 
Well for all practical purposes, the 10mm is more powerful than the .41 to me. I can buy a box of 10mm from the local gun store and throw it someone and hurt them more than the equivalent .41 magnum...because I have never once seen .41 in the wild.

I would say that, yes, the .41 probably smokes the 10mm if you reload. However, since the .41 is basically an extinct round to buy off the shelves, I would be ok with a 10mm wheelgun in its place.
 
I'm no .41 true believer but how often to people shop for ammo they do not use? Selection of 10mm ammo on the shelves ain't so hot either. I order mine online, which I suspect many do, which kinda makes that point moot.

The .41 smokes the 10mm no matter how you look at it. Anyone can choose what they want but let's not talk ourselves into thinking it's better because ammo is easier to find......sort of.
 
I'm no .41 true believer but how often to people shop for ammo they do not use? Selection of 10mm ammo on the shelves ain't so hot either. I order mine online, which I suspect many do, which kinda makes that point moot.

The .41 smokes the 10mm no matter how you look at it. Anyone can choose what they want but let's not talk ourselves into thinking it's better because ammo is easier to find......sort of.
The amazing thing is how often you see it.
 
10mm Auto and 357 Magnum are really close to each other ballistically speaking. Both top out around 750 ft-lbs of muzzle when energy when loaded close to SAAMI Max pressure with heavy for caliber bullets. 357 mag has a minor energy advantage especially as bullets get lighter due to its larger case volume. 10mm Auto has a minor bullet weight advantage and a minor Max pressure advantage.

10mm Magnum on the other hands can nearly match 41 Magnum performance. Though there are currently no firearms manufactured in the cartridge. Converting 10mm Auto revolvers is relatively trivial.
 
Well for all practical purposes, the 10mm is more powerful than the .41 to me. I can buy a box of 10mm from the local gun store and throw it someone and hurt them more than the equivalent .41 magnum...because I have never once seen .41 in the wild.

I would say that, yes, the .41 probably smokes the 10mm if you reload. However, since the .41 is basically an extinct round to buy off the shelves, I would be ok with a 10mm wheelgun in its place.
That’s an amazing observation because I just went to MidwayUSA and counted 16 different 41 offerings. Incredible!
 
From Buffalo Bore:

HEAVY .41 MAGNUM OUTDOORSMAN
230 gr. Keith
(1,450 fps/M.E. 1,074 ft. lbs.)

HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN
(1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)

HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN
180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC
(1,400 fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)


The 10mm doesn’t even match the 357 let alone come close to the 41.
 
The 41 is far, far, FAR from extinct...

I expect it will be gaining some ground as more states move towards straight walled rounds for deer hunting.

It quite literally stomps the 10mm into the ground, and runs right along beside the 44 with neither the 41 or 44 being any better or worse than the other for deer and black bear.
 
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Biggest drawback with the 10mm and 10mmMag is available bullets. Even the hardcast flat points have such a small meplat to facilitate feeding in semi-autos, they're really more comparable to the .357 in that regard and heavy bullets top out where the .41 begins. Not only does the .41 utilize much heavier bullets at higher velocities but they make more effective use of their diameter with larger meplats. The video is really a sophomoric view of things with no knowledge of the practical application of these cartridges in the field.
 
The 41 is far, far, FAR from extinct...

I expect it will be gaining some ground as more states move towards straight walled rounds for deer hunting.

It quite literally stomps the 10mm into the ground, and runs right along beside the 44 with neither the 41 or 44 being any better or worse than the other for deer and black bear.
The 44 Mag is just as big a step up from 41 Mag as 41 Mag is from 10mm Auto.
 
That’s an amazing observation because I just went to MidwayUSA and counted 16 different 41 offerings. Incredible!

I went outside my front door and saw a dozen dogwood trees. I'm going to guess my uncle down in Florida won't have the same tree count. My point is that in my area, the largest local gun shop doesn't stock .41. I know they could get it. I'm sure they can order it just like Midway. They just dont stock it right now. It doesn't sell, I assume. I no longer see them with GAP, or .327 magnum, or .32 h&r, or 7.62x25 tok. They had those at one time, but now they don't.
Walmart obviously doesn't carry any of those, the local Dick's doesn't, nor does the Academy Sports. None of those places that sell handguns has ever had a .41 revolver under the glass to handle either in this area. I don't know of anyone in my group of shooting peers who even owns one.

So while I understand it's available in great numbers, for me, in this area of about 150,000 people, it is extinct for all practical purposes. Now all of those places have 10mm. Heck, the LGS even has a couple boxes of .357 SIG stocked with the pistol ammo, and a Barrett hanging on the wall behind the counter for sale with cartridges available to feed it.

I think .41 is a fine round. Part of the reason why I know those places dont have the .41 on the shelves is because THR got me interested in guns chambered in it and I was curious as to what it would cost to feed. I'd love to see more guns chambered in it, but I barely see .44 special on the shelves here.

So for me, if I were buy a wheelgun that shot a hot flat shooter of a round, the 10mm would make more sense than a .41. I'm not disputing that the .41 curbstomps the 10mm. Just saying that in my relative reality, it is effectively extinct until it becomes a popular hunting round or drops in price to be cost effective to play with. I get that it's a reloaders round, but I would like to pop off a box of factory stuff before I rolled up my sleeves to try making it on my own.
 
I typically don’t talk much to strangers but I’ve heard the same idiocy many times in person and that’s when I can’t keep my mouth shut. It’s nothing but ignorance being repeated by people who are apparently too lazy to educate themselves. Picking up one decent loading manual, or even just a visit to a reputable manufacturer’s website who makes hunting ammo would make it very obvious that 41 magnum leaves 10mm auto in the dust with ease.

CraigC also points out the differences in bullets that make 41 mag a different level of performer, so there’s no need to repeat.

I do feel it’s a good equivalent cartridge to the 357 magnum, and I think it may even present a bit of an advantage depending on the application. That’s user dependent though and based on context.

My favorite is when bears are brought up and someone actually has the ignorance needed to suggest 10mm auto is just as good a choice as a 44 magnum.

Tim of MAC lost my respect when he started “torture testing” guns. As if abusing guns intentionally means anything. I haven’t watched his nonsense in a few years, and see no reason to start again.
 
I went outside my front door and saw a dozen dogwood trees. I'm going to guess my uncle down in Florida won't have the same tree count. My point is that in my area, the largest local gun shop doesn't stock .41. I know they could get it. I'm sure they can order it just like Midway. They just dont stock it right now. It doesn't sell, I assume. I no longer see them with GAP, or .327 magnum, or .32 h&r, or 7.62x25 tok. They had those at one time, but now they don't.
Walmart obviously doesn't carry any of those, the local Dick's doesn't, nor does the Academy Sports. None of those places that sell handguns has ever had a .41 revolver under the glass to handle either in this area. I don't know of anyone in my group of shooting peers who even owns one.

So while I understand it's available in great numbers, for me, in this area of about 150,000 people, it is extinct for all practical purposes. Now all of those places have 10mm. Heck, the LGS even has a couple boxes of .357 SIG stocked with the pistol ammo, and a Barrett hanging on the wall behind the counter for sale with cartridges available to feed it.

I think .41 is a fine round. Part of the reason why I know those places dont have the .41 on the shelves is because THR got me interested in guns chambered in it and I was curious as to what it would cost to feed. I'd love to see more guns chambered in it, but I barely see .44 special on the shelves here.

So for me, if I were buy a wheelgun that shot a hot flat shooter of a round, the 10mm would make more sense than a .41. I'm not disputing that the .41 curbstomps the 10mm. Just saying that in my relative reality, it is effectively extinct until it becomes a popular hunting round or drops in price to be cost effective to play with. I get that it's a reloaders round, but I would like to pop off a box of factory stuff before I rolled up my sleeves to try making it on my own.
Who cares what the local shops carry, seriously??? I wouldn't have three quarters of the guns I own if that was how I made gun buying decisions.

Sorry but the .41Mag 'may' be off your radar but it is far from extinct.
 
Who cares what the local shops carry, seriously??? I wouldn't have three quarters of the guns I own if that was how I made gun buying decisions.

Sorry but the .41Mag 'may' be off your radar but it is far from extinct.

We all purchase what we like for reasons we make for ourselves:) By extinct, I mean functionally extinct within my local market. Maybe critically endangered is a better term as I can get it, I'm sure. However, it's not the easiest to get my hands on it. The .41 exists and thrives somewhere, but it's not on the shelves of where I buy ammo or in the cabinets of folks I know who shoot around here.

I dont shoot enough to buy in bulk online or pay for shipping. I only purchase guns from local gun shops as I'm a small business owner and appreciate the same (not that they won't order me whatever I want, I just dont purchase guns online). I prefer to handle and shoot before I buy what I deem "oddballs" (no offense intended. I just mean guns/cartridges that are outside of the most common pistol/rifle formats) to make sure I want to invest in the hardware and expense of a more niche ammo. Like I said, no one I shoot with has one.

Once again, and on topic, I mean no disrespect to the .41 and dont doubt its power over the hottest 10mm. I have just never seen one to try it out. Truth be told, a 10mm revolver would probably make less sense to me than just buying a Glock 20 for my imaginary bear threats and calling it a day. But between a 10mm and .41, I would go with what I could afford/find ammo to feed in case I didn't have time/resources to reload for it. I'm not a hunter, so my performance needs are much different than others.

My initial post was just in jest.

Back to the topic at hand, it is irritating when misinformation gets spread as truth. Many folks won't take the time to suss out the facts if they are presenting to them.
 
The 41 is far, far, FAR from extinct...

I expect it will be gaining some ground as more states move towards straight walled rounds for deer hunting.

It quite literally stomps the 10mm into the ground, and runs right along beside the 44 with neither the 41 or 44 being any better or worse than the other for deer and black bear.

Really? How many Manufacturers chamber it in new revolvers?

I used GGD's 1892 Winchester in .38 WCF to kill a deer this year and an occasional limited run comes out chambered for it but I don't kid myself it's less than an obsolete round.

Speer Gold Dot .41 Mag 210
1280 fps

Sig Vcrown 10mm 180
1250 fps

It's not equal but it's not that far behind.

PS People are claiming the .40 S&W is dead and it easily the most common .40/.41 Caliber.
 
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I went outside my front door and saw a dozen dogwood trees. I'm going to guess my uncle down in Florida won't have the same tree count. My point is that in my area, the largest local gun shop doesn't stock .41. I know they could get it. I'm sure they can order it just like Midway. They just dont stock it right now. It doesn't sell, I assume. I no longer see them with GAP, or .327 magnum, or .32 h&r, or 7.62x25 tok. They had those at one time, but now they don't.
Walmart obviously doesn't carry any of those, the local Dick's doesn't, nor does the Academy Sports. None of those places that sell handguns has ever had a .41 revolver under the glass to handle either in this area. I don't know of anyone in my group of shooting peers who even owns one.

So while I understand it's available in great numbers, for me, in this area of about 150,000 people, it is extinct for all practical purposes. Now all of those places have 10mm. Heck, the LGS even has a couple boxes of .357 SIG stocked with the pistol ammo, and a Barrett hanging on the wall behind the counter for sale with cartridges available to feed it.

I think .41 is a fine round. Part of the reason why I know those places dont have the .41 on the shelves is because THR got me interested in guns chambered in it and I was curious as to what it would cost to feed. I'd love to see more guns chambered in it, but I barely see .44 special on the shelves here.

So for me, if I were buy a wheelgun that shot a hot flat shooter of a round, the 10mm would make more sense than a .41. I'm not disputing that the .41 curbstomps the 10mm. Just saying that in my relative reality, it is effectively extinct until it becomes a popular hunting round or drops in price to be cost effective to play with. I get that it's a reloaders round, but I would like to pop off a box of factory stuff before I rolled up my sleeves to try making it on my own.
Flv3r, I went to a large BassPro down here in Florida a few months back and was amazed to see but ONE glass case with any revolvers in it. There were a few 357s + 38s and some 22s ... that’s it! The younger generation all want to be John Wick. They consider a revolver to be some kind of horse pistol from a bygone era. If they can’t pump out 19 rounds without reloading, it’s obsolete. From their point of view , the 44 is as obscure as the 41.
 
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Where the 10MM shines is it's an auto loader round. You can rattle off a mag, drop it, and slap in a fresh mag, and keep rockin'

Now help me out JSKI, sir, please, what type of .41 auto-loader do you use?
 
The argument is that most published data from the 41 is a 6-inch (or sometimes longer) test barrel while the 10mm was running 200gr at 1200 from a 4.6 inch glock. When the 41 magnum is a 4 inch barrel it's much closer. In the real world I cant imagine it makes a speck of difference in the 357 mag, 10mm, 41 magnum performance.

The 41 will never see a resurgence like the 10mm simply because the 357 and 44 are far more popular and available in far more handguns and loadings. The 44 can be equal to 41 firing specials and easily over power it with magnums and do so in more guns and on the same frame. The first handgun I ever fired was a smith 41 30 years ago. That's also the last 41 I seen anyone actually own. The 10mm was kept alive as the only mass produced and readily available, viable hunting semi-automatic handgun, and the duty arm of a very few agencies. I personally believe that if glock had given up the 10mm that it would have been as dead as the 41 to the average shooter, only existing to a small number of fans who stay up at night debating wether that extra 200 fps over the 40 will kill that man hunting bear that we all have to read about every few weeks. But probably 10 brand new 10s have been introduced in the past 2 years and I believe that's largely due to the uninterrupted production of the 20/29.
 
Revolvers:
.22 LR
.22 WMR
9x19mm
.38 Special
.357 Rem Mag
.44 Rem Mag
.454 Casull
.460 S&W
.480 Ruger
.500 S&W

I live close to one of the larger independent gunshops in the nation (They have two locations and sold 400 S&W Shield 1.0 9mm for $199 by noon on Black Friday) and that's all the revolver calibers they have in new guns. They likely have a 1000 used ones so I haven't went through all those. They do have a $175 Special on the Taurus 85 ($195 for LW/Stainless) so someone must still be buying them.
 
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