10mm the equivalent of the 41 - sheer BUFFOONERY

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Nope.... that barrel length argument doesn't fly.

I have a Glock 40 in 10mm with a 7 inch KKM barrel... I've pushed it as hard as it can be pushed with EVERY suitable powder and 1,300 fps is all it'll do with 200 grain bullets.

I also have a 6.5 inch Ruger in 41 mag... with 210 grain bullets, even starting loads will exceed 1,300 fps... and max loads will exceed 1,500 fps.

To quote Paul Harrell..... that's a LOT more.
 
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When I first got the 10mm (didn't have the 41 yet)... even I tried to say the 10 was its equal.

Then I got the 41....1 round... that's how many rounds it took me to know how wrong I was... the 10mm feels like a pop gun compared to the 41.

As I moved into the right powders for the 41 (Accurate 4100) and started seeing 1,500+ fps on the MagnetoSpeed readings it become more and more clear just how powerful the 41 could be when properly loaded.
 
Just to put it out there....I do comment on the 41 a lot.... but I don't stretch the truth when I do.

And I only do it because it is a darn fine round that is truly magnificent for deer and black bear, which is what I use it for.

I hate to see it buried under all the 44 mag comments... nothing wrong with 44... but the 41 will work just as well for medium game, and maybe better...as it can be easier to shoot.

I have a 10.5 inch 44 Blackhawk also... but it doesn't see much use outside of a range day here and there... I'd much rather shoot the 41.
 
94045 said:
Speer Gold Dot .41 Mag 210
1280 fps

Sig Vcrown 10mm 180
1250 fps

It's not equal but it's not that far behind.
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That’s only true if you look at the crappiest 41 mag loads and some of the better 10mm loads. Yes they do overlap a little, but if the 41 mag is loaded properly, it out paces 10mm with ease.

180 and even 200 gr 10mm ammo can be loaded up to about 1300 FPS, and that’s dang warm.

210 gr 41 mag ammo can be loaded up to over 1550 FPS. So a heavier bullet is being pushed over 200 FPS faster.

Look at top loads from Underwood, Doubletap, and BB and the difference becomes apparent.
 
I was just pointing out
460Shooter said:
That’s only true if you look at the crappiest 41 mag loads and some of the better 10mm loads. Yes they do overlap a little, but if the 41 mag is loaded properly, it out paces 10mm with ease.

180 and even 200 gr 10mm ammo can be loaded up to about 1300 FPS, and that’s dang warm.

210 gr 41 mag ammo can be loaded up to over 1550 FPS. So a heavier bullet is being pushed over 200 FPS faster.

Look at top loads from Underwood, Doubletap, and BB and the difference becomes apparent.
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I was assuming (bad as I haven't even watched the vid) that MAC may have been talking Defense Loads instead of hunting handloads. Of course that introduces the whole issue of FBI 10mm Light (.40 S&W Long?).
 
Yeah, i saw that MAC upload. He's got a lot of other odd opinions too. I love the 10mm. yeah, love it. Gives great power coupled with capacity. Shoots flat, hits hard and is all the pistol most would ever need. That being said, i don't see the 10mm as the equal of 357 mag really. Close, but close doesn't mean same. I might make a few folks unhappy to say the 10mm has no business in a revolver. It's an exercise is pointlessness. No rim, gotta use moon clips or have a stick handy, it doesn't have the industry support for bullet profiles that give revolvers an edge. It doesn't have the diameter to case length ratio to compete with cartridges not intended for autoloaders. A gun of identicle size and weight can chamber 357 or 41 or even 44 mag. The only use i could imagine would be for a guy with other 10mm guns who has components for loading and doesn't want to tinker with a new caliber. If theres something i'm missing please let me know. 6 or even 8 rounds of 10mm in a revolver is in no way the equal of a 44 magnum with 5 or 6. And for plinking away at cans and paper its much easier to load / extract rimmed cartridges, no fiddling with moon clips or poking around with a stick.
I'm a realist, i know a 10mm will likely penetrate a bear skull (WARNING: ON THE VERGE OF A BEAR THREAD), but a heavier bullet traveling faster clearly would be an advantage. Round count in that situation i doubt would be a factor, but maybe. I like 10mm for general use & camping anywhere south of illinois, up north a 454 casull comes along. That'll poke a hole in anything that breathes.
 
Obturation said:
Yeah, i saw that MAC upload. He's got a lot of other odd opinions too. I love the 10mm. yeah, love it. Gives great power coupled with capacity. Shoots flat, hits hard and is all the pistol most would ever need. That being said, i don't see the 10mm as the equal of 357 mag really. Close, but close doesn't mean same. I might make a few folks unhappy to say the 10mm has no business in a revolver. It's an exercise is pointlessness. No rim, gotta use moon clips or have a stick handy, it doesn't have the industry support for bullet profiles that give revolvers an edge. It doesn't have the diameter to case length ratio to compete with cartridges not intended for autoloaders. A gun of identicle size and weight can chamber 357 or 41 or even 44 mag. The only use i could imagine would be for a guy with other 10mm guns who has components for loading and doesn't want to tinker with a new caliber. If theres something i'm missing please let me know. 6 or even 8 rounds of 10mm in a revolver is in no way the equal of a 44 magnum with 5 or 6. And for plinking away at cans and paper its much easier to load / extract rimmed cartridges, no fiddling with moon clips or poking around with a stick.
I'm a realist, i know a 10mm will likely penetrate a bear skull (WARNING: ON THE VERGE OF A BEAR THREAD), but a heavier bullet traveling faster clearly would be an advantage. Round count in that situation i doubt would be a factor, but maybe. I like 10mm for general use & camping anywhere south of illinois, up north a 454 casull comes along. That'll poke a hole in anything that breathes.
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Sacrilege!!! Moonclips Rule! :D

Honestly moonclips are the fastest most fumble free way to reload a revolver quickly, and moonclips for rimless cartridges are more robust and less finicky than moonclips for rimmed cartridges. I doubt that matters to many in this particular thread but some of use spend many years running a 610 10mm revolver in USPSA where is was the second most popular behind another rimless revolver the 625 in 45 ACP.
 
Fiv3r said:
I dont shoot enough to buy in bulk online or pay for shipping. .
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I agree that each individual has their own priorities when buying stuff.

Personally, even for cartridges that I may not shoot much, I still buy a bulk purchase of bullets to last a while. Brass has life of several reloadings and primers and powder have uses in several different cartridges so I maintain a supply of components that last a while.

Of course, if you do not reload, you miss out on the benefits of having limited commercially availability cartridges on hand.

mcb said:
Sacrilege!!! Moonclips Rule! :D

Honestly moonclips are the fastest most fumble free way to reload a revolver quickly, and moonclips for rimless cartridges are more robust and less finicky than moonclips for rimmed cartridges. I doubt that matters to many in this particular thread but some of use spend many years running a 610 10mm revolver in USPSA where is was the second most popular behind another rimless revolver the 625 in 45 ACP.
Click to expand...

I've discovered moon clips and agree with mcb. I have revolvers with moon clip capability chambered in 45 ACP, 9x19, 38 Special and 10mm.

Except for a couple J-frames that I had machined to accept moon clips (I do have one S&W 442 that came from the factory to accept moon clips, my first moon clip revolver), my moon clip capable revolvers tend to be rimless cartridges and came from the factory to accept moon clips.

As an aside, a bit pricey for many folks but BMT Equipped moon clip loaders are the cat's meow when it comes to moon clip loaders.
 
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The MAC guy is not an ammo guy. He might understand guns, but not so much on ammo.
 
The whole 10mm=41Mag nonsense started back during the early days of the 10mm.

During that era, one of the more common 10mm loads from a major ammo maker was the Winchester 175gr STHP, and a popular (if that can really be the right word to describe any .41Mag ammo) .41Mag self-defense loading was, coincidentally, also a 175gr STHP from Winchester. The two loadings provided roughly similar velocities, in fact, the 10mm loading velocity was advertised at 1290fps (it's currently catalogued at 1200fps) and the .41Mag was advertised at 1250fps.

But 1250fps isn't anywhere near qualifying as a hot .41Mag load--in fact it's quite a light loading. One of Keith's design concepts for the .41Mag was that it was to be loaded in two general categories. One category was an easy shooting self-defense cartridge, the second second general performance category was to be a hunting round, or at least a very high performance heavy magnum round that handily exceeded the common service pistol calibers of the day. Remington took that idea but heated up both of the categories a bit from Keith's vision.

Anyway, the .41Mag 175gr STHP from Winchester clearly fell into the "mild" .41Mag category intended for self-defense/LE use which, though hotter than what Keith envisioned, was still far below what the caliber was capable of.

On the other hand, 1290fps with a 175gr bullet was pretty hot for a 10mm round. Not the absolute top end, but certainly not anywhere near the bottom.

But some gun writer did the comparison and without getting into the details of how the two loads compared to other loadings in the two calibers, gushed about how the 10mm beat the .41Mag. I remember reading the article although I can't remember the author now. It's been "common knowledge" ever since.

In reality, if you go to the trouble to catalog a ton of loadings from the 10mm, .357Mag and 41Mag and then compare them, it becomes apparent that the 10mm and .357Mag are (overall) close enough that it's hard to pick a clear winner and even more apparent that .41Mag beats the pants of both of them. Its in a completely different class.

Here are some charts I made from all the factory .40, .357SIG, .357Mag, 10mm, and 41Mag loadings I could find on the web back in 2006.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2672982&postcount=11

At that point in time, the highest momentum factory 10mm round beat the highest momentum .357Mag loadings slightly while the highest energy .357Mag factory round beat the highest energy 10mm loadings slightly. The two rounds are much more similar than they are different.

It's interesting to see how the 5 calibers overlap in some ways and are clearly distinct in other ways. It makes some things very clear. .357Mag and .357SIG are quite different in capability and performance. .40S&W and 10mm are quite different in capability and performance. 10mm and .357Mag are very similar in capability and performance with the primary difference being that it's possible to find much lighter .357Mag loads--most likely because anything "cycles" in a revolver while the same is not true of light-loaded autopistol rounds.

Of course, it's a pain to gather all that information, poke it into a spreadsheet and then generate plots, so most people content themselves with comparing a few cherry-picked loadings or maybe just relying on opinion and hand-waving alone.
 
I don't really know how it started but I do remember the 175gr Silvertip being advertised at 1290 fps in 10mm and 1250 fps in .41 Mag. Many, well I won't say that, most people really only care about ft-lbs of energy and to them, that's all that matters, period. To a surprisingly large segment of these people, that's why a 44 Magnum could never be as potent as a .30-30, never mind the larger caliber and heavier bullets, it's all about that energy figure calculation. Maybe that's why they're shocked if the 10mm can kill a deer, even though any service caliber handgun round can and will and has.

But you know, to all the people who say the 10mm is like a .41 Magnum, does it ever occur to them (besides being wrong) that the .40 is closer to the 10mm by a considerable margin than the 10mm is to the .41 Mag? Maybe since it's in vogue currently to hate the .40, probably not. I've had them all and reloaded for them all. I know I've pushed a 265gr hardcast past 1500 fps in a .41 Magnum Ruger Blackhawk 6.5". I've also ran a 200gr to about 1320 fps in a 5" KKM Glock 10mm and a 200gr .40 S&W (both WFNGC) to 1250 fps from a 5.3" KKM Glock 35. Maybe my way of thinking is flawed, but a .41 seems to be a larger step up whereas I'm not too sure anything alive would know the difference between the .40 and 10mm.
 
Well the 40 Herter's Magnum deserves a mention too, it's the closest relative to the 41 Mag since it's an revolver round.
 
Fiv3r said:
Well for all practical purposes, the 10mm is more powerful than the .41 to me. I can buy a box of 10mm from the local gun store and throw it someone and hurt them more than the equivalent .41 magnum...because I have never once seen .41 in the wild.

I would say that, yes, the .41 probably smokes the 10mm if you reload. However, since the .41 is basically an extinct round to buy off the shelves,
Click to expand...

Fortunately, the internet is a thing, as is home delivery. I will never understand people in this day and age being fixated on what's available on a physical shelf. Who cares? They'll bring it to your house.
 
94045 said:
Really? How many Manufacturers chamber it in new revolvers?
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Pretty much all the high-quality makers that are still in the big-bore game. S&W and Ruger on the DA side. Ruger and a bunch of the SA-only brands on the SA side. What's missing? Colt doesn't make a .41... but they don't make a .44 or a .45LC these days, either, do they? Is the barometer for "extinction" whether Charter Arms has got a gun?
 
I'm a fan of both cartridges and load them both. There is a tiny kernel of truth in the statement, but a whole lot of literal wrong.

There is, as we all seem to vigorously agree, no question that the 10mm cannot match what the .41 mag can do at the top end. Anyone who thinks that is simply and undeniably wrong. And that difference can be very material if you're talking about a hunting application or hitting things at distances over 100 yards.

Here's the only way in which the statement reflects some reality. Full-power 10mm is about the maximum power level that is effectively employable for any kind of shooting where multiple shots in rapid succession are required by a human of ordinary strength and reasonably-acquired skill.* It's still more than the shooter of average skill can effectively employ/manage, but it's within the range of what can be learned with some diligence by an adult male of ordinary to good physical strength. It's a cartridge usable by someone at, say, the 75th or 80th percentile. Full-power .41 or .44 is simply beyond that point for most people, and is completely unforgiving of any failure to attend to recoil management. Only someone in the 98th or 99th percentile could effectively use such a gun in a multi-shot, multi-target situation.

But the traditional LE/self-defense loads for the .41 magnum - such as the venerable Winchester Silvertip - are loaded to a level where the recoil is still stout compared to service-caliber cartridges, but within what that 75th or 80th percentile shooter can (learn to) effectively manage. So when it comes to rounds that are suitable for self-defense, yes, the 10mm and .41 magnum are equivalent... because they both cap out self-defense effectiveness at the same place. The .41 has much more power left to offer, but there's no way to controlably access is for multi-shot, multi-target uses.

*I acknowledge that some extraordinary individuals have so much hand strength and have spent so much time firing big-bore magnum-power rounds that they can effectively manage that kind of recoil... but those people are very small in number. Much, much, much smaller than the number who can learn to manage full 10mm.
 
jski said:
HEAVY 10MM OUTDOORSMAN - 220 gr. Hard Cast - FN
(1,200 fps/ME 703 ft. lbs.)

HEAVY 357 MAG OUTDOORSMAN
180 gr. Hard Cast LFN-GC
(1,400 fps/M.E. 783 ft. lbs.)

The 10mm doesn’t even match the 357...
Click to expand...

This is statement is wrong, and reflects a misunderstanding of the math of kinetic energy formulas. If you take the same cartridge and load it to max pressures with suitable powders with bullets 40 grains apart, the lighter bullet loading will ALWAYS have higher kinetic energy. That's because the KE formula squares velocity.

Conversely, if you were to run a momentum ("power factor") calculation for the same load you listed above, you will see the 10mm round carrying more momentum/"power factor" than the 357. (264 PF for the 10mm vs 252 PF for the .357.)

You need to compare similar bullet weights.
 
Fiv3r said:
I went outside my front door and saw a dozen dogwood trees. I'm going to guess my uncle down in Florida won't have the same tree count. My point is that in my area, the largest local gun shop doesn't stock .41. I know they could get it. I'm sure they can order it just like Midway. They just dont stock it right now. It doesn't sell, I assume. I no longer see them with GAP, or .327 magnum, or .32 h&r, or 7.62x25 tok. They had those at one time, but now they don't.
Walmart obviously doesn't carry any of those, the local Dick's doesn't, nor does the Academy Sports. None of those places that sell handguns has ever had a .41 revolver under the glass to handle either in this area. I don't know of anyone in my group of shooting peers who even owns one.

So while I understand it's available in great numbers, for me, in this area of about 150,000 people, it is extinct for all practical purposes. Now all of those places have 10mm. Heck, the LGS even has a couple boxes of .357 SIG stocked with the pistol ammo, and a Barrett hanging on the wall behind the counter for sale with cartridges available to feed it.

I think .41 is a fine round. Part of the reason why I know those places dont have the .41 on the shelves is because THR got me interested in guns chambered in it and I was curious as to what it would cost to feed. I'd love to see more guns chambered in it, but I barely see .44 special on the shelves here.

So for me, if I were buy a wheelgun that shot a hot flat shooter of a round, the 10mm would make more sense than a .41. I'm not disputing that the .41 curbstomps the 10mm. Just saying that in my relative reality, it is effectively extinct until it becomes a popular hunting round or drops in price to be cost effective to play with. I get that it's a reloaders round, but I would like to pop off a box of factory stuff before I rolled up my sleeves to try making it on my own.
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If you simply mail order your 41 ammo, you have no argument. I don't care for $1-a-shot ammo, so I reload my own. I also have a 41 Special custom gun and have no choice but to load my own ammo for it. As long as Starline has the brass, a round is not "extinct".
 
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