10mm
- Thread starter goober
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Goober, check out the Dan Wesson Forums at http://www.1911forum.com to find out everything there is to know about them. The president of the company and one of the reps are active posters there and several of the members bought the first batch shipped.
caz223
Member
I have the DW razorback, and the G20, 2nd gen.
They are both excellent guns, and if you only buy one glock, the G20 is the one to get.
I'd look at the patriot 10mm, or a 4" smith 610 if I wanted a new 10mm right this minute.
They are both excellent guns, and if you only buy one glock, the G20 is the one to get.
I'd look at the patriot 10mm, or a 4" smith 610 if I wanted a new 10mm right this minute.
AndABeer
Member
S&W 10xx
but the RZ is alright.
but the RZ is alright.
Peter M. Eick
Member
I have razor #16 and have put over 2000 rnds down it.
All in all it is a very good gun, well made and worth the money. They (DW) had some teething pains but worked it all out.
Les Baer will make you a 10mm if you ask. I have a heavyweight monolith.
All in all the g20 and witness are good guns but just not as accurate (for me) as the 1911 format 10mms.
Good luck.
All in all it is a very good gun, well made and worth the money. They (DW) had some teething pains but worked it all out.
Les Baer will make you a 10mm if you ask. I have a heavyweight monolith.
All in all the g20 and witness are good guns but just not as accurate (for me) as the 1911 format 10mms.
Good luck.
I've only got about 60 rounds through my Patriot 10mm, but so far I really like it! After my first initial trip to the range I dropped it off at my gunsmith. I had him cut out the slide stop notch, drop in a FLGR, install an EGW oversized firing pin stop and put in a new trigger (the one that came on the gun was just plain ugly). I can't wait to get it back to the range. It sure feels good in my hand, but I still haven't decided if it'll replace my S&W 1086 as my primary CCW gun.
I had serial number 10 Razorback and gave it up because DW wasn't being totally honest with us.
The funny thing is, my $325 Witness target is every but as accurate as my buddys # 30's Razorback and so is my pre II 40 (reemed) Kimber and S&W 1006.
Find a Pre II 40 and have it reemed, they really feed and shoot great! They also have a supported ramped barrel which is key when shooting hot loads IMO. Also you save $$$ and trips back to DW with the above guns.
Heres my Kimber with the very grips used for the original Razorback prototype. Bren
The funny thing is, my $325 Witness target is every but as accurate as my buddys # 30's Razorback and so is my pre II 40 (reemed) Kimber and S&W 1006.
Find a Pre II 40 and have it reemed, they really feed and shoot great! They also have a supported ramped barrel which is key when shooting hot loads IMO. Also you save $$$ and trips back to DW with the above guns.
Heres my Kimber with the very grips used for the original Razorback prototype. Bren
EAA Witness
I have had a wonderfull time with my Witness. Since I live in CA., I can only buy the .45 fullsize witness, then buy the conversion unit to 10 mm.
I did have to replace the recoil spring to a Wolffe 20#. You could even use the 18# one. Just don't use the stock one from the conversion. It's too weak.
Accuracy is awesome! Reliability awesome AFTER the spring swoop.
My two cents worth.
Pablo
I have had a wonderfull time with my Witness. Since I live in CA., I can only buy the .45 fullsize witness, then buy the conversion unit to 10 mm.
I did have to replace the recoil spring to a Wolffe 20#. You could even use the 18# one. Just don't use the stock one from the conversion. It's too weak.
Accuracy is awesome! Reliability awesome AFTER the spring swoop.
My two cents worth.
Pablo
Sean Smith
Member
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I've owned an EAA Witness 10mm, Glock 20C and a couple of 10mm 1911s (but not the Razorback).
Some thoughts:
I owned and liked the EAA Witness 10mm. Average accuracy varies wildly gun-to-gun, though, and the stock sights and triggers aren't so hot. D.R. Middlebrooks and EGW will do custom work to fix these issues to varying degrees, but the "top end" accuracy & trigger potential of these guns is limited compared to, say, a 1911. Furthermore, both D.R. Middlebrooks and George Smith at EGW have commented that the design isn't really strong enough for the 10mm Auto cartridge over the long haul when I talked to them. Not what you'd expect to hear about such a big hunk of steel (especially from the few people who stand to make a buck working on Witness guns), but apparently the lockup just ain't that strong. Too bad, since the thing is great to shoot... the ergonomics and all that steel make it a great recoil sponge.
The Glock 20C was an excellent performer, though the porting on the "C" versions is a waste of time in my opinion. On the other hand, the huge grips are unsuited to most human hands, and Glock triggers will always suck.
Both the Razorback and the Kimber Stainless Target II guns have had reports on 1911forum.com of being unreliable out of the box. People have a right to expect more from close to $900 guns. Having a pre-Series II Kimber converted to 10mm by a pistolsmith would cost the same or less, and result in a more reliable product. Or you can look around for a good deal on a Delta or S&W 10xx series gun.
Some thoughts:
I owned and liked the EAA Witness 10mm. Average accuracy varies wildly gun-to-gun, though, and the stock sights and triggers aren't so hot. D.R. Middlebrooks and EGW will do custom work to fix these issues to varying degrees, but the "top end" accuracy & trigger potential of these guns is limited compared to, say, a 1911. Furthermore, both D.R. Middlebrooks and George Smith at EGW have commented that the design isn't really strong enough for the 10mm Auto cartridge over the long haul when I talked to them. Not what you'd expect to hear about such a big hunk of steel (especially from the few people who stand to make a buck working on Witness guns), but apparently the lockup just ain't that strong. Too bad, since the thing is great to shoot... the ergonomics and all that steel make it a great recoil sponge.
The Glock 20C was an excellent performer, though the porting on the "C" versions is a waste of time in my opinion. On the other hand, the huge grips are unsuited to most human hands, and Glock triggers will always suck.
Both the Razorback and the Kimber Stainless Target II guns have had reports on 1911forum.com of being unreliable out of the box. People have a right to expect more from close to $900 guns. Having a pre-Series II Kimber converted to 10mm by a pistolsmith would cost the same or less, and result in a more reliable product. Or you can look around for a good deal on a Delta or S&W 10xx series gun.
I have decided to go with a Kimber 10mm. They have produced a limited run of 10mm pistols using the TargetII model. My dealer is able to get one. Despite the often noted problems with Kimbers my wife has CDP Ultra pistols in both .40 and .45 calibers which have both run nary a hiccup.
I'll post a picture as soon as I receive it, thank you all for your replies.
Greg
I'll post a picture as soon as I receive it, thank you all for your replies.
Greg
Grayrider
Member
I recently acquired a Kimber 10mm in a trade. Beautiful. You won't regret it. I am also buying another Dan Wesson 1911 in that caliber. It is one of the experimental Patriot style guns. I sold my PM 10mm not long ago and decided to chance another DW. While the PM ran well after tuning the extractor, my RZ has not been that impressive. It was a jammomatic, and while DW mostly fixed that it still doesn't like reloads. My smith can fix it one of these days. I think by getting the Kimber you are safely bypassing such issues.
GR
GR
Peter M. Eick
Member
I have a DW razorback and I have mixed feelings about it. I would never sell it because I got to pick the serial number and I have it decked out my way! BUT, the barrel is pretty heavily ramped so you really cannot push it that hard and now that I have over 2000 rnds down it, it is really showing a lot of wear. Virtually all of the lettering has come off the barrel and yet this is only a range queen, never carried.
Are they good guns? Yes they are.
Do I regret buying it? No, but I think I paid a lot to get my number and to be part of the project. Ask Bren what that is worth.
Do I think there are better values out there? Yeah get a witness. Mine was $285 and I find it easier to shoot and has held up better then the Razor. My witness has around 5000 rnds down it and was my truck gun for years. It does not show the wear that the Razor does.
I guess maybe it is because it is stainless and not hard carbon steel?????
Are they good guns? Yes they are.
Do I regret buying it? No, but I think I paid a lot to get my number and to be part of the project. Ask Bren what that is worth.
Do I think there are better values out there? Yeah get a witness. Mine was $285 and I find it easier to shoot and has held up better then the Razor. My witness has around 5000 rnds down it and was my truck gun for years. It does not show the wear that the Razor does.
I guess maybe it is because it is stainless and not hard carbon steel?????
Sean Smith
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I doubt the difference is surface hardness; good stainless steel and carbon steel are about the same hardness-wise (all else being equal, e.g. heat treat and so forth). The stainless Delta Elite I had hardly showed any detectable wear at all, and I shot the snot out of it. My guess would be that the laser engraving that DW does is just really, really shallow. So much for improving on good old fashoned roll-marks.
Grayrider
Member
Sean is right, the laser engraving is barely a scratch. My numbered RZ mags started to fade a bit just with handling. They now sit in the safe with the RZ. I got it to give to my son when he turns 21 (a long time from now). I will just get it working then put it away. If someone wears it out it will be him.
My Kimber, on the other hand.....
GR
My Kimber, on the other hand.....
GR
Delta Elite, S&W 10XX, S&W 610
For pure accuracy, find yourself a nice used S&W 610 with the 6.5" barrel. Accurate and versatile (shoots either 10mm or 40S&W). I have had two S&W 10XX pistols and both were accurate firearms. Delta Elites are also fairly accurate out of the box and are readily accurized (like most 1911-style pistols). No experience with the Witness 10mm and received the same warnings from EGW on durability. Had a local shop return two 10mm Witnesses to EAA for cracked slides (personally saw one). Missed out on the Razorback series, but happy that DW will continue the 10mm in the Patriot series. I have heard a lot of positive feedback on the DW 1911's locally.
My $0.02 worth.
For pure accuracy, find yourself a nice used S&W 610 with the 6.5" barrel. Accurate and versatile (shoots either 10mm or 40S&W). I have had two S&W 10XX pistols and both were accurate firearms. Delta Elites are also fairly accurate out of the box and are readily accurized (like most 1911-style pistols). No experience with the Witness 10mm and received the same warnings from EGW on durability. Had a local shop return two 10mm Witnesses to EAA for cracked slides (personally saw one). Missed out on the Razorback series, but happy that DW will continue the 10mm in the Patriot series. I have heard a lot of positive feedback on the DW 1911's locally.
My $0.02 worth.
10mmshooter
Member
Grayrider,
I don't know what tweaking you had to do to the Pointman that I got from you...but it functions flawlessly with every variety of JHP ammo that I put into it. Without a doubt the most positive experience I have ever had buying a used gun...ever!
If the function of the Pointman is any indication of your ability to fine tune a 1911 style pistol...your son is very lucky to have that RZ sitting in the safe! Hopefully, the 10mm gains some popularity in the years to come, as it truly is a seriously addictive caliber! Just think of all the empty brass the two of you will generate when he is of age to become your range partner....hehehe!
I don't know what tweaking you had to do to the Pointman that I got from you...but it functions flawlessly with every variety of JHP ammo that I put into it. Without a doubt the most positive experience I have ever had buying a used gun...ever!
If the function of the Pointman is any indication of your ability to fine tune a 1911 style pistol...your son is very lucky to have that RZ sitting in the safe! Hopefully, the 10mm gains some popularity in the years to come, as it truly is a seriously addictive caliber! Just think of all the empty brass the two of you will generate when he is of age to become your range partner....hehehe!
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
Incidentally, the #1 reported problem with the Razorbacks was extractors with no tension... something the external-extractor Patriot 10mm guns should have no problem with.
Grayrider
Member
Well I cannot claim to be the tweaker. My gunsmith did it the proper way, measuring the extractor weight and adjusting as needed until it was perfect. The RZ needed the same thing, but I had DW do it. It still needs throating, some attention to the extractor (still), and a trigger job. After that I think it will be a pretty nice pistol.
It is worth noting that the extractor in the PM appeared not to have been adjusted at all from the factory! It was just dropped in. Sheesh. On the other hand, its 3.75 lbs trigger did come that way. I suppose I would rather them get the trigger right, as that is harder to correct.
GR
It is worth noting that the extractor in the PM appeared not to have been adjusted at all from the factory! It was just dropped in. Sheesh. On the other hand, its 3.75 lbs trigger did come that way. I suppose I would rather them get the trigger right, as that is harder to correct.
GR
Moparmike
Member
EAA Witness seems to be a good 10mm. I dont notice that much recoil in the 9 rounds I have shot out of it.
I know, only 9 rounds? What is wrong with you? Well, it just doesnt seem to be my cup of tea at the moment. I also bought it as my first handgun because the deal was too sweet to pass up.
I know, only 9 rounds? What is wrong with you? Well, it just doesnt seem to be my cup of tea at the moment. I also bought it as my first handgun because the deal was too sweet to pass up.
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