18.5" or 20" for duty shotgun?

[Teufelhunden]

The police department I'm applying to has a chief that's progressive enough to allow officers to buy their own shotgun if they don't want to carry the department's stock 870.

Having more faith in a gun that is ste-up and comfortable for me, and having experience with armory issue weapons in the past, I've decided that I'm better off providing my own scattergun.

Now that I've considered and handled the 'Big 3' (Remington 870, Mossberg 590, Winchester 1300) I believe I've settled on the Mossberg as the controls feel to be in the right places for me.

My question is this: Is there a practical reason to get a barrel any longer than 18.5 inches? Will a 20' barrel help keep the shot pattern more condensed for a longer distance? A little more weight won't be anything I complain about in a pump 12ga, but is 20" of barrel unwieldy?

Question 2 is in regards to chokes. I've noticed that most 'riot guns' seem to be cylinder bores, but I was under the impression that there are fixed chokes that hold a tighter pattern than cylinder bore. Am I wrong, and if not, what are they? -or- What's the tightest choke I can get that will still allow me to shoot slugs?

I'm not new to shooting, but shotguns are a new addition to my realm of interest...

-Teuf

 

[Al Thompson]

IMHO, no difference in barrel lengths of 18 v 20. The max 2 inch differnce is just unnoticeable for manuver.

The dispersion of the shot is related to the choke, barrel length has nothing to do with it. A Cylinder choked 30 inch barrel will pattern more openly than a 14 inch barrel that is Full choke.

You can shoot slugs through any choke except those tighter than Full, I.E. Turkey chokes. Generally, Full choke patterns tighter with #1 buck and smaller. Modified (depending on the individual gun) usually is the best compromise - tends to pattern everything well. Cylinder or Improved Cylinder is very open with all buckshot. My Scattergun Tech 870 had a fixed Modified tube in an 18 inch barrel. That worked well for OO buck.

Each shotgun is a rule unto itself, but those generalities hold true for the majority.

 

[P95Carry]

Just to throw in a quick 0.02 Teuf ... shorter the better!

More ''wieldy'' ......

Ballistically ... forget it ... not enough diff' to matter IMO.

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

20 incher has more rounds.


replace the safety with a metal one, and consider installing the GR sights.

 

[only1asterisk]

I like the 20" myself, but your results may vary.

David

 

[Morgan]

Make certain the extra length won't interfere with getting into and out of the lock, especially with all the assorted crap that often ends up in the area where the butt sits. If there's no problem then pick the one you like.

I also carry a personal shotgun on duty, 18" 870. Get a sling, and think about it before sticking a long tube on - they get heavy after a few hours on a perimeter, and extra weight hanging on the end adds up. A sidesaddle isn't as bad as it isn't out on the end - but make sure it won't interfere with your car rack.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Tuef, when you say your prayers each night, thank Heaven for that chief. Such pragmatism and concern for the troops is rare.

20" vs 18.5". no es importante, Longer barrel will have SLIGHTLY less flash, but it's a minor advantage.

If I were setting up a Cruiser Queen,I'd have something like IC or Mod choke to get a tighter pattern.stray buck are egregious. AND, I'd pattern the duty load until I was satisfied with the performance.

One minor point....

If the issue weapon is an 870, get an 870. Sooner or later you'll have an incident where you're armed with someone else's Cruiser gun, and it's hard to recall differences in controls when under max stress.

I prefer GMs to all other sidearms and Colt D/A revolvers as a second choice. But when I was getting paid by MD DOC, I used K frame S&Ws as off duty guns,because they were what I was trained to use.

HTH...

 

[JShirley]

Matter of fact, Byron has the 20" Mossy, and I have the 18".

I partially chose the shorter version, because I didn't want the extra weight of the longer mag tube. This was the first time I decided to go with the "hurt me now" expense of just buying everything I wanted on the gun, instead of trying to add extras later at even more cost. I got the parkerized, ghost sighted version, which I like quite a bit. The only change I have made is switching out the overlong factory synthetic stock with a shorter aftermarket, and adding a sling. I may add a SideSaddle, but then, I may not.

This shotgun just feels good, heavy enough to not be whippy, but light enough to be really handy. Contrary to everybody else, I've been shooting slugs- usually the Remington Reduced Recoil- almost exclusively in it.

Good luck! The Rem are great shotguns, too, but I do agree that the Mossbergs' safeties are better placed.

John

 

[El Tejon]

I prefer 14", but if the chief wants to stick with Title I, I'd go as short as possible with something I will be fighting with (fighting involves A LOT of running, running out of the scout car, into warehouses, through doorframes--I perfer "handiness"). Longer barrel has advantage of sight plane, less roar and rowdiness, and slight increase in velocity with slugs with many downsides.

Pattern YOUR shotgun whatever load you use and choke you decide upon. IME, the modified choke has advantages at certain ranges, with some drawbacks. Of course, all weapon platforms are double-edged swords. I use cylinder for point defense, but I am unlikely now to be taking shots across the grocery store parking lot. YMMV.

 

[coylh]

Mossberg

 

[Teufelhunden]

Using Mossberg's own site as a guide (this page), it looks like the only 20" with ghost-ring sights and a modified choke is the 590DA, which is their 'double action only' shotgun. Has anyone got any complaints about a DAO trigger on a shotgun? Liability-wise, it'll only look better to the deptartment I'm sure, but does the DAO trigger make it shoot a whole heck of a lot differently?

Honestly, if it's something that helps in the combat employment of the weapon, I won't mind it. This isn't going to be a weapon that's pressed into service as a trap gun, so I'm not worried about the DAO trigger's effect on sporting endeavors.

-Teuf

 

[Andrew Wyatt]

they make a 500 with a 20 inch barrel. it's cylinder bore. it also does not come with GR sights, but they can be pretty readily installed.

 

[Dave McCracken]

Tuef, the DA trigger is harder to control well. It's a step away from good equipment, not towards it.

If a dept has probs with NDs, better TRAINING and mayhap better PERSONNEL are the answers, not a tricky trigger that handicaps good shooters.

 

[Teufelhunden]

That's what I was afraid you'd say Dave...Quite honestly, I'm not really a fan of DAO triggers--not that I'm not a fan of consistant triggers (say, SAO ) but most of the DAO guns I've handled simply have triggers too heavy for precise shooting. My only DAO gun is a Taurus PT-140 which also has a positive safety--it was bought with the intent to carry in unusual places and ways, so I found the heavy trigger to be a personal safety issue.

Regardless, Mossbergs only Mod choke offering NOT in a DAO configuration is their compact 14" version, which isn't really what I'm looking for.

Just for consideration Dave, how much will 2 3/4 9pellet 00buck open up at 20 yards coming from a 20" mod choked barrel vs. improved or cylinder bore? Obviously, every gun will pattern differently, but I'm just trying to get a feel for how they are compared to each other. I've had other shotgunners (I'll leave professions out of it) tell me not to worry about how open my shotcloud gets, but I don't even see one pellet going over or past my intended target to be acceptable. Obviously, that pellet's got to land somewhere downrange, and also, one pellet off the target is one less pellet stopping it...

Since Mossberg doesn't have quite what I want, looks like the Winchester 1300/FN Police Shotgun might get a closer look...but, I think I might be slowly re-evaluating my criteria. To pick your brain Dave, what else would you recommend in a tactical length weapon that has a modified choke? Ghost rings or at least rifle type sights would be nice, but I can always add those...

-Teuf

 

[Dave McCracken]

I've nothing against DAs, Casa McC has a number of them here including one DAO belly gun.

But...

Shotguns are different. "Serious" shotguns are used like rifles, and a good trigger is mandatory. Even recreational shotguns benefit from a clean, light trigger. If you're doubtful, ask the next AA shooter you see what his trigger's like.

We want that thing to trip EXACTLY when we want it to. Heavy,long gritty triggers will not do that.

As for the Mossy, you can bet your favorite gland that few DAOs are getting sold to shotgun cogniscienti. It's an answer to the wrong question.

Each shotgun/load/choke is a Law unto itself. Mine will put the best 00 for them into less than 20" at 20 yards. I'd prefer to research and alter until I can get 15" at 25 yards, but haven't been that motivated to do so yet.

Why 15"? Width of most torsos is about that.

Typically, GOOD 00 will go into one inch or less per yard of range. The Cheapos have trouble staying on a washtub at 25 yards for the most part. Again, YMMV.

Modified choke will PROBABLY tighten the pattern 2-3" at 20 yards, if my research applies to other shotguns.

Good buckshooters, without getting into the morass of custom chokes and barrel work a la Vang, include the Big Four, especially the Ithaca in its Deerslayer variant. The whole bore runs close to .690", equivalent to Full choke, and some buck(again, testing is mandatory) does very well in it.

During the Nam Mess, the Deerslayer was many point men's weapon of choice. Even in jungle fighting, the best wanted little spread. So do I here, for "Serious" apps.

The 870,with a Modified choke, is another choice, as is that FN/Winnie.

In your shoes, I'd get one of the above with choke tubes. I'd test with duty ammo until I figured out which choke gave me the tightest pattern, and then use that one only.I might even loctite it in place so road vibrations couldn't get it to shake loose.

HTH....

 

[Teufelhunden]

Dave, you're worth your weight in gold shot

The FN comes with Imp.Cyl. and Mod chokes and rifle sights, which sets me up well for accurate shooting. The rest is up to me.

Just to hear it again, I CAN shoot rifled slugs through both Imp.Cyl. and Mod chokes, right?

Incidentally, I've found one with a TacStar +2 extender and TacStar 6shell sidesaddle--is TacStar stuff any good? I've found mixed reviews..., but the gun costs $375...

-Teuf

 

[Dave McCracken]

Gold shot!? Thanks for the chuckle...

Yes, you can shoot slugs through IC and Modified chokes.

I've a TacStar SS, it's worked OK. No info on their mag extensions. I tend to turn a jaundiced eye towards ANYTHING with Tac, Tactical, or Practical in its name.

As for the price, I'll revert to the DMMU scale invented by a contributor here.
$375 is TWO used 870s, or one plus ammo,addons and mods. I dunno if that FN/Winnie is worth that much, but it's not my decision to make.

HTH and good luck...

 

[Coronach]

Holy crap.

You have a good chief.

That said, I work a cruiser with an assigned shotgun. We used to have bone-stock 870s, and we switched to ninja-ed up 870s. This was a serious tradeoff...what used to be a very light and handy 18" scattergun turned into a railroad tie of a weapon...we gained 2 rounds in the mag and 4 in the buttstock, but I do miss that handiness. THINK about your tradeoffs when modifying the weapon. TANSTAAFL.

If you have the option of 18 or 20, I'd pick 18. You change little ballistically (so I'm told), but handle both...the 18 is slightly more handy, and handy is good.

Further suggestions?

Pattern the gun. Know the pattern.

Do you use slugs? Know where they'll land.

Your next modification to the gun should be a Surefire fore-end. Try clearng a building using the flashlight-along-the-shotgun method sometime...you can do it, but it ain't a lot of fun.

Long guns should wear slings on the street.

Continue to practice with stock 870s. You never know when you might have to grab the boomstick out of someone else's hands, or someone else's cruiser.

The McCracken Method for SG proficiency is a good plan (BA/UU/R).

Mike

 

[Al Thompson]

The McCracken Method for SG proficiency is a good plan (BA/UU/R).

What other plan could there be? Read magazines and watch movies?

 

[Coronach]

Too often, too often...

Mike