1851 Navy & beginner

[1861]

Hello all!
My first post

Today I got my first firearm: Colt 1851 Navy by Pietta, model "Yank Civilian .36"





I've never before held a revolver in my hand, not even seen one live. But for long time I wanted one. My interest developed especially for early revolvers, not so much for later ones, and the bigger the better. When I took 1851 Navy today from the box, I was amazed how gorgeous it is, and at the same time dissapointed by its size. I thought it'll be even bigger, but the disappointment is really the grip. I don't have big fist, I think I have average fingers. I feel the grip is way too small. If I put all fingers on the grip, it doesn't feel completely natural and comfortable. That way I feel I hold the gun more/most firmly, but I also feel I can't optimaly control the aiming with all fingers on the grip. If I put small finger under the grip, I feel I can better control the aiming, but that way it lays in my hand less firmly and less comfortable.

I've read this thread:
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/single-action-grip-sizes.794003/

So I'm not the only one with this issue. How would you hold it? Do you think I'll get used to it? What do you recommend, all fingers on grip, or last finger under? Can I modify it, replace the grip for a longer one?

Was the original grip in mid-19th century longer? If not - WHY did they produce such short grip? Is there something I don't realise yet about it? I know I'm just a beginner, but I can tell what feels right in my arm.

I'll probably have a lot more questions

 

[rodwha]

The Colt 1860 Army is built from that same frame but had a longer grip. If you purchase (Pietta) the grip frame and grip this should likely help you.

 

[Crawdad1]

I don't know there are not very many people I've heard that complain at all about the 51 Navy grip. Most say its the best balanced revolver they ever held so you must either have an extra large hand or you're not holding it right.

 

[1861]

The Colt 1860 Army is built from that same frame but had a longer grip. If you purchase (Pietta) the grip frame and grip this should likely help you.

So, I CAN get a longer grip... great, thanks!
I found this: https://www.beckchasse.com/armes-de.../produit-pietta-plaquette-bois-1860-1734.html
But that's just the walnut... I can't seem to find just the grip frame for 1860 anywhere right now.
I'm quite satisfied with the wood I've got for my grip, i wondered how it'll look, I've seen prettier, but I've seen worse, mine is nice, reddish, I wanted that. The new grip may not be so pretty, but I'd still go for a longer grip.

 

[Crawdad1]

You can get everything here,

http://www.taylorsfirearms.com/acce...0-army-revolver-1861-navy-revolver-parts.html

https://www.dixiegunworks.com/produ...cts_id=1151&osCsid=muprjj75fgm3jadfvrfa2qg3n1

http://www.vtigunparts.com/store/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=70&cat=Pietta+1860+Army+1861+Navy

 

[Crawdad1]

Can you get parts from America into your country?

 

[Panzerschwein]

The Colonel Colt's Revolving Belt Pistol of Naval Caliber is a sure winner. Excellent.

 

[1861]

I can't import gun parts from America. I CAN'T import them from ANY country in the world EXCEPT from FRANCE. France has the most liberal gun laws regarding the black powder firearms. The only difference between buying a black powder gun in France and buying a bread and milk in France, is that you have to show (with any document) that you're at least 18 years old when buying a black powder gun. I ordered the 1851 Navy online from France almost like I order CDs all the time from any country. It came in 6 days, my postman delivered it to my door. Viva la France.

But THANKS Crawdad1, that will be helpful, I'll try to find those same parts here in Europe or maybe contact those US webshops anyway

 

[rodwha]

You'll certainly need a new piece of wood as it's longer along with the frame.

Maybe you can take a train to a neighboring country that may have them available. Italy certainly comes to mind.

 

[Gaucho Gringo]

At the prices for parts which seem to be very high IMO, maybe your best bet would be to buy an 1860 and trade parts. Then sell the 1860. Just be aware that some 1860's came with the Navy grip frame(what you have)so just be careful. On all 3 of my 1851's I cannot get all my fingers on the grip. My little finger is curled under the butt - thumb over top the back strap, first finger on the trigger, middle & ring fingers on the grip and little finger under the butt. I would say 95% of people firing an 1851 do so in this manner. If a person has really small hands they may be able to have all in the grip. Never really bothered me shooting my 1951's with my little finger under the butt.

 

[BCRider]

I'm surprised that no one has said to simply put your pinky under the heel and go ahead and shoot your new gun.

I shoot a wide variety of single actions including 1860's, 1858's and 1873's. These early single actions mostly all share the need for the pinky under style of hold. The ONLY one that does not is the Bisley style. But that style came later. It's not historically correct for your 1851. It did take me a while to get used to this style of hold. But now I'd feel odd if I could not hold my single action guns that way. So a big part is just getting used to this style of holding.

By using the pinky under grip you automatically position the gun's grips correctly in your hold. Provided you normally use Large or XLarge gloves you should not have any issue at all with the pinky under grip. And to be fair I'm in that size range with some large size gloves fitting me well and in some other cases I need Xlarge to fit my longer thumb. So perhaps for me the pinky under grip is more natural. If you are more of a medium glove wearer then you may find that there is some gain to be had by either crowding the pinky just on the lower corner of the heel or to ease the sharp edge of the wood on the one side to make it easier for your pinky to slide under the heel.

I hope that helps ease your mind and steer you away from adding things to the gun which are not historically correct. After all, for many of us getting to experience EXACTLY what the old frontier cowboys did is a big part of the attraction of these early firearm clones. Enjoy your new toy! ! !

By the way, after your first session at the range you will be back wondering why the sights make the gun shoot so high. At least unless Pietta is using a taller front sight these days that will happen.

 

[44 Dave]

My little finger is under the Navy size grips.

 

[rodwha]

I'm surprised that no one has said to simply put your pinky under the heel and go ahead and shoot your new gun.

I shoot a wide variety of single actions including 1860's, 1858's and 1873's. These early single actions mostly all share the need for the pinky under style of hold. The ONLY one that does not is the Bisley style. But that style came later. It's not historically correct for your 1851. It did take me a while to get used to this style of hold. But now I'd feel odd if I could not hold my single action guns that way. So a big part is just getting used to this style of holding.

By using the pinky under grip you automatically position the gun's grips correctly in your hold. Provided you normally use Large or XLarge gloves you should not have any issue at all with the pinky under grip. And to be fair I'm in that size range with some large size gloves fitting me well and in some other cases I need Xlarge to fit my longer thumb. So perhaps for me the pinky under grip is more natural. If you are more of a medium glove wearer then you may find that there is some gain to be had by either crowding the pinky just on the lower corner of the heel or to ease the sharp edge of the wood on the one side to make it easier for your pinky to slide under the heel.

I hope that helps ease your mind and steer you away from adding things to the gun which are not historically correct. After all, for many of us getting to experience EXACTLY what the old frontier cowboys did is a big part of the attraction of these early firearm clones. Enjoy your new toy! ! !

By the way, after your first session at the range you will be back wondering why the sights make the gun shoot so high. At least unless Pietta is using a taller front sight these days that will happen.

While I'm not exactly a purist I do see it the same for the most part (I do have smaller hands and would likely put a '51 grip on an Army). And quite frankly I doubt there's enough recoil from a .36 to make you wish you had another finger on the grip anyway, especially if you are shooting a ball.

 

[1861]

I'm surprised that no one has said to simply put your pinky under the heel and go ahead and shoot your new gun.

I've said it in my first post: "If I put small finger under the grip, I feel I can better control the aiming, but that way it lays in my hand less firmly and less comfortable."

there is some gain to be had by either crowding the pinky just on the lower corner of the heel

Yeah, that "middle position", not on the grip, not under the grip, but on the corner - seems the best position.

I do plan to buy more revolvers from that period. Dance by Pietta is probably next. Does anyone here know what grip (which size) is used for the Dance?

I'm still a long way from shooting. I have yet to decide which powder and which balls to buy and where. I have to order cleaning set and the case. And a lot more questions to write and answers to read...

Do you think I made a right choice with Pietta, or I should have gone for Uberti? Some say Uberti is better, some say that was the case before, not any more. Pietta has more different models and more different finishes to offer, that's why I choose Pietta, so that one day I can have an option to switch parts between different but similar revolvers.

Thanks all for all your replies.

 

[rodwha]

For a Colt model I'd likely take a Pietta each time (if they made the model I needed) as they seem to need less work outside of chamber size, which isn't a big issue per se.

Uberti seems to make things more accurately accept for the arbor length of Colt models. It seems an easy enough fix that I'd try it, especially as the Colt models I need aren't made by Pietta (Walker and Police).

You'll be looking for 3F powder (No 2 for Swiss) for pistols.

.375 inch balls will likely work fine. Pietta generally runs smaller chambers versus the barrel size (groove/lands) but .380 inch gives a bit more to obturate. Many match shooters like to shoot slightly larger balls and these generally create slightly more pressure/velocity and better groups (for those who count each mm).

 

[BCRider]

I've said it in my first post: "If I put small finger under the grip, I feel I can better control the aiming, but that way it lays in my hand less firmly and less comfortable."


Yeah, that "middle position", not on the grip, not under the grip, but on the corner - seems the best position.

I do plan to buy more revolvers from that period. Dance by Pietta is probably next. Does anyone here know what grip (which size) is used for the Dance?

I'm still a long way from shooting. I have yet to decide which powder and which balls to buy and where. I have to order cleaning set and the case. And a lot more questions to write and answers to read...

Do you think I made a right choice with Pietta, or I should have gone for Uberti? Some say Uberti is better, some say that was the case before, not any more. Pietta has more different models and more different finishes to offer, that's why I choose Pietta, so that one day I can have an option to switch parts between different but similar revolvers.

Thanks all for all your replies.

:Yeah, I know it doesn't feel "right" not having all the fingers on the grip. But it actually ends up being the best way. Otherwise there is a tendency to choke up higher on the grips. And I found that when these guns are deep in my grip that way they shoot strongly off to the side. You really want the web of your hand to cross over about the middle of the bend on the back strap to attain the "natural pointing" of these guns. And using your pinky under the heel aids with this.

The stability and power for the retention of the guns comes more from the "choke hold" you have between your thumb and middle finger wrapped around the grips anyway. And to a lesser extent the support of the ring finger. The pinky underneath aids in stopping the gun sliding too far through this grip as it takes the natural path back and down. Your pinky underneath makes it easy and natural to "lift" the grips back into place. Although with a .36 you should not have much slip through your grip and resulting need to reset the gun position in your grip.

As I posted earlier this does assume a fair size hand. If you're more of a medium glove size person you may find that it's not only a stretch but also hurts your pinky a little. But again if you can use the pinky under style without rubbing your finger raw where it passes over the ridge to the heel of the grips it really is the best way with these guns.

I've got some example of both Pietta and Uberti. At one time I understand that Pietta definitely took a back seat to Uberti. But I'd say these days it's pretty much a wash. Each is slightly better than the other in some small ways. But overall Pietta brought their game up and makes an equally fine firearm as Uberti when it comes to the black powder offerings.

If you have the option where you live of purchasing proper black powder I'd suggest you go that way and buy some 3fg or fffg. That way you are sure you are feeling the exact same kick from the gun as they did 165 years ago.

Ball size will depend on the chamber mouth size. Typically you would go for .375 so it shaves off a fine ring of lead which ensures you it's well sealed. But a fellow owner will be along soon to let you know what size to use.

For cleaning I'd suggest you buy a .357 bronze and nylon brush. Most of your cleaning should be done with the nylon bristle brush. Only if you see some crusty lines at the transitions from lands to groove should you need to use the bronze brush to scrub away any potential leading. For my own cap and ball guns I can't remember the last time I had any leading at all. There was a couple of times the fouling was a little stubborn but the stuff that came out was black rather than flakey and shiny due to leading. So most of the time you can use the more gentle nylon bore brush.

Cleaning the chambers can be tricky since they are blind ended. A trick I found works like a treat is take 4 or 5 pipe cleaners that have the hard bristles. Bend the one end over at around 5 cm from the end and on the other end twist the ends tightly to stop them coming apart and bend a "crank handle" into the tail. You can use this to clean the chambers very easily and effectively. The beauty of the pipe cleaners is that a vigorous swishing in the warm soapy water before doing the next chamber cleans away the fouling from this pipe cleaner chamber brush. And the bend at the end does a nice job of cleaning the end of the chamber. Turns an hour long ordeal into a 15 to 20 minute walk in the park.

I don't fully strip my BP guns each time. Instead I clean out around the hammer with a pipe cleaner and around the frame. Then about ever third day of shooting with the guns or at the end of the last day I'll be shooting them for some months (like winter) I'll fully detail strip and clean and lubricate with Ballistol before putting the guns to bed for the "long sleep".

Speaking of oil you know from reading the BP sticky thread at the top of the forum that you should only use vegetable or nut based oils or Ballistol on your gun, right? But a good thing to know is that ALL vegetable or nut based oils will gum up over some time... such as winter storage. So Ballistol is the best way to go as it is an oil which is compatible with the type of fouling that BP produces. The other more common gun oils are reported to turn the mix of oil and fouling into a gummy tar like deposit and should be avoided.

 

[1861]

BCRider thanks a lot for your effort! I've been reading forums and watching educational videos on YouTube for the last few weeks, so in theory I know a lot already, but still there will be numerous details to ask. So I'll go step by step. I think it'll be some weeks or more before I fire it for the first time.

 

[rodwha]

I actually prefer cleaning with a bore mop.

Ballistol is most certainly your friend. Love the stuff!

 

[J-Bar]

1861, you are over thinking this!

Grip the revolver so that you can cock the hammer easily one-handed. Let your fingers conform to the grip as they will in that position. This is a Uberti 1851 and I wear large size gloves even though I don't consider my hands very large at all. I prefer the Uberti grip to the Pietta grip for aesthetic reasons, but my hands grip a Pietta the same way:



Just for grins, here is a video I made about the 1851. You can see in the final shooting sequence that recoil is very mild. You will not need to choke your revolver's grip to control it. Don't do anything to the gun until you shoot it and see how you like it.

Have fun at the range.

https://www.youtube.com/edit?o=U&video_id=Wk5CMtWquGM

 

[expat_alaska]

I do plan to buy more revolvers from that period. Dance by Pietta is probably next. Does anyone here know what grip (which size) is used for the Dance?

The Pietta Dance .44 uses a modified 1851 Navy frame to accommodate the larger diameter .44 cylinder (the water table has been milled lower), but it still uses the same 1851 Navy grip size. In 2015 Pietta started manufacturing a different style grip and did away with the pre-2015 "tail" style grip. Please be advised that the older style grip will fit the newer guns (and vice-versa) but all three pieces (wood, backstrap, and trigger guard) must be changed as the pieces are different between the styles. The same thing is true if you choose to go with the longer 1860 Army grip, as others have suggested.

If you prefer a larger pistol, the Dragoon .44 might be a good choice. I have 6 Pietta 1851 Navy type .36 pistols and like them very much.

I hope I have not been too confusing.

Jim

 

[1861]

I hope I have not been too confusing

Not at all, you've been very clear, thanks!

 

[kBob]

I would find a local gun club and see if someone could teach me face to face about Black Powder Colts. Barring finding a local club I would buy French gun magazines and look for adds about clubs for shooting or re-enacting that might be worth a drive or a weekend trip to get the same sort of face to face instruction. If all else fails use those magazines and do a web search for re-enactments and competitions that might use those Colts and go to one.

-kBob

 

[1861]

J-Bar, I hold mine the same way as you showed on that photo. Thanks. I have 2 pairs of gloves for riding a bike, one is size L, the other is size 11. My hands are very average size, not large at all, but I feel that longer grip would be better. I may get used to it, maybe I'll never change the grip, maybe I will, but not so soon.

 

[1861]

I would find a local gun club and see if someone could teach me face to face about Black Powder Colts. Barring finding a local club I would buy French gun magazines and look for adds about clubs for shooting or re-enacting

Hey kBob, France is a thousand miles to the west from me. I imported revolver from France. You think a French person would know English this well?
I may be the only person in my city to own a black powder Colt. People here don't know and don't care about it. Many people own guns, but those are mostly hunters who own hunting rifles, or army veterans who kept automatic weapons from recent wars.
Clubs exist mostly for air rifles and air pistols, for sport shooting and their events with judges and all that.
Re-enacting is totally unknown thing in this part of the world.
Airsoft and paintball is growing popular among young ones in the last 15 years. I never tried that because they all only have the most modern airsoft weapons, and I would like to try airosft with WW2 weapons and gear, but people here lack style, a few care for anything that is not from this millenium. I'm 39 and I don't like this millenium at all. Even my audio gear is vintage.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

When Colt developed the 1873 Single Action Army cartridge revolver they used a grip frame that is about the same as the 1851 Navy, not the longer grip of the 1861 Army percussion revolver. Of course, some folks don't like the small grip so modern reproductions of the SAA can be had with an 1860-ish grip frame. Supply and demand at its finest.

Cowboy action shooting is popular in some corners of Europe and some participants use cap and ball revolvers because their laws make owning cartridge guns more difficult. You might run a search for SASS affiliated clubs in your part of the world.