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1851 Navy & beginner

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by 1861, Aug 8, 2017.

  1. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Gotta love Italians. After 14 days I got reply from Valentina from Pietta: "a .44 cylinder can not be assembled with a 36 cylinder" :D
     
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  2. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Language barriers .... they can lead to great amusement.... in WW2 a squad of Americans got cut off from their side in the Battle of the Bulge and ran out of ammo ... their leader tried to say "don't shoot!" In German, but didn't remember the correct word and wound up saying "don't s h i t.":D The Germans had a good laugh but accepted their surrender. o_O
     
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  3. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Germans had a good laugh, but afterwards they didn't find it funny anymore. Likewise, I had a good laugh with Valentina, but I don't find it funny any more, because I have no idea what Pietta was trying to say to me. More than one person here and elsewhere said that I can put a .36 barrel and .36 cylinder on a .44 frame and .44 grip, and although I trust them, I just wanted a Pietta to confirm me that, before I spend hundreds of dollars on new (.44) revolver... and I got a brilliant assessment which took them 14 days to contemplate: a .44 cylinder can not be assembled with a 36 cylinder
     
    Last edited: Jan 7, 2019
  4. expat_alaska

    expat_alaska Member

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    1861,

    It is just a language barrier on their end.

    Shotgun Dave and I have freely contributed most of the major parts for a project gun that a former member (maint1517) here had in mind: a Pietta 1851 Navy .36 caliber based upon a Pietta brass .44 frame and a Pietta .36 barrel and .36 cylinder.

    It will work.

    Parts, so far:

    Gary001.jpg

    Parts, assembled:

    Gary002.jpg

    The grip frame is of the Pietta 2014 [CM] "tail" variety but it mates up to the frame without a problem. The frame is older and is most likely not CNC machined. Any Pietta 3-piece grip configuration from a newer Pietta 1851 Navy or from a Pietta 1860 Army will also fit (if you want a longer grip profile).

    Other than the somewhat inconspicuous gap between the bottom of the .36 cylinder and the cut water table on the .44 frame, all is well.

    He is probably short about $120 for the rest of the parts from DGW, but he has been going through a bit of rough financial times and it may be some time before we see the completed gun. I will relay when/if possible.

    Regards,

    Jim
     
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  5. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Of course it's just a language barrier, I understood that right away. Today I got a new reply to my yesterday's second email, and she finally confirmed what others said - YES.
     
  6. Mizar

    Mizar Member

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    Deleted as irrelevant.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2019
  7. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Totally new question :)
    Can I somehow change the finish of my Kirst conversion cylinder, from black to silver-looking, is it possible? Thanks.
     
  8. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Evaporust is the safest product to use to remove bluing because it's not an acid or toxic in any way, and can't harm metal.
    It's an advanced technology product that's reusable.
    Read the answer to question #16, and watch some Evaporust videos about it.
    It's available in the UK so you should be able to find it if you want to use it:--->>> https://www.gemplers.com/tech/faq-evaporust.htm

    "16. Will Evapo-Rust have any effect on coatings such as bluing or paint?
    Evapo-Rust will remove coatings such as bluing and zinc phosphate, but it will not remove anodizing, powder coating, paint and most other coatings as long as they do not contain oxides."


    The steel may be [darker] gray and not bright silver unless it's buffed & then polished with something like Mother's Mag & Aluminum Polish,
    but I really don't know how bright & shiny of a silver color that it would end up looking like in the end:--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/finishing-a-kit.843507/#post-10965888

    I have no idea if anyone has ever done it before or what color the steel is that the Kirst Converter is originally made from.
    The amount of carbon in the steel and its composition could affect the finished color & brightness.

    What don't you like about the factory finish of the Kirst Converter that leads you to consider changing it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  9. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Thanks arcticap. Nothing wrong with the Kirst, from the beginning I want a silver 1851 Navy .36. In Europe I'm not able to get it (can't import it from the USA), here I can only buy quite expensive 1851 Navy .44 in silver finish, but I don't want .44. So I'm curious can I change what I have from black/blued to silver or silver-like, part by part... I'm willing to do it if the final result will look nice (I have no idea will it look nice) and if I won't endanger the steel in any way.
    There's a talk of VINEGAR for this at few websites.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  10. Mizar

    Mizar Member

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    If you remove the bluing, which is a protective finish, the parts will be more prone to rust. Vinegar works pretty well, but you will still be left with a grey oxide layer which must be removed with abrasives. On top of that carbon steel will develop a grey oxide layer even if cared for if you don't polish it with abrasives from time to time - so, make that decision wisely and without rushing.

    P.S. Proper steel polishing is a somewhat tricky business for the inexperienced and it quickly can turn into disaster.
     
  11. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Thank you Mizar, that's enough for me to give up the idea.
     
  12. bannockburn

    bannockburn Member

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    1861

    Is there anyone who can do hard chrome plating for you? I had my Beretta hard chrome plated many years ago and it definitely has a silver (sort of like matte stainless steel), look to it. Or else you can go the bright chrome (not as durable as hard chrome), or bright nickel plating route.

    Cqr6BsX.jpg
     
  13. 1861

    1861 Member

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    I like that "matte stainless steel" very much, although I don't know how it would look with 1851 Navy. For modern firearm it looks perfect, but maybe it won't look right for the mid-19th century piece? I know nothing about the hard chrome plating, maybe there's someone who does it, I would have to ask around. Thanks for the idea. It's definitely something I would not rush into, it will be the very last thing I'll do, if ever.
     
  14. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I'm not sure how they create the mirror polish on the Old Silver guns, but it's possible they use an electo-polishing method that's most often used on stainless steel.
    Electricity and a chemical bath is used to microfinish the surface to a mirror finish by removing microns of material.
    It's a process that's performed by many anodizing & finishing companies here that also specialize in finshing guns and other manufactured parts:--->>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electropolishing

    See the before and after photos at the bottom of this page:--->>> https://www.delstar.com/electropolishing
     
  15. Jackrabbit1957

    Jackrabbit1957 Member

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    Pinesol, a strong cleaning agent, will also remove the blued finish leaving a matte finish. I have done this to several of my revolvers and they are no more prone to rusting than when the blueing was on. Keep in mind that blueing is a rusting process in the first place. If you strip off the original finish just keep an eye on it for any signs of corrosion and keep it oiled.
     
  16. Mizar

    Mizar Member

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    If the surface is not polished after the bluing is striped then you are left with an oxide layer (that mat grey finish) which protects from rust to some degree. Hot salt bluing is not a rusting process - only rust bluing is, but then you are passivating the oxide layer, turning it to magnetite, by boiling it in water.
     
  17. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Mizar I don't follow you any more, I'll forget about it for now, I don't feel I'm up to the task, I'm afraid that I might screw up.

    Walt Kirst wrote: "all you need to do is polish the bluing off. Start with 220 grit and finish with 600 grit Emery paper. Keep it clean and oiled to prevent rust after removing the blue."

    Thanks all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  18. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Those "silver" versions of various Pietta revolvers - do they also have a protective finish, albeit of a different kind, or they lack that sort of protection?
     
  19. Eyrie G. Dogg

    Eyrie G. Dogg Member

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    Many of those Piettas are just plated brass. Be careful.
     
  20. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    I asked an engineer who said that there's no real way to know for sure if polished steel has undergone a "passivation" process or not.
    It's often performed to satisfy the requirements of government specifications that require that everything possible is to be done
    by governement contractors to prevent rust or corrosion of parts being made for the military, or for the medical field.
    It's invisible to the naked eye.
    However it is often performed on steel that has undergone "electro-polishing" whether it's stainless steel or not.
    If it were done, the thickness of the protection would be on the sub-micron level.
    Perhaps Valentina knows? :D

    From Google:

    Passivation is the process of treating or coating a metal in order to reduce the chemical reactivity of its surface.
    In stainless steel, passivation means removing the free iron from the surface of the metal using an acid solution to prevent rust.
    -----
    What is the passivation process?

    Chemical passivation is a two step process.
    The first step is to remove any free iron or iron compound that is on the surface, otherwise this iron will create a localized site where corrosion can continue.
    Acid is used to dissolve away the iron and its compounds.
    The surface itself is not affected by this process.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
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  21. Mizar

    Mizar Member

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    1861 - I don't know and quite frankly, I don't care as blued guns are my "cup of tea". There are stainless models, as Eyrie pointed out - nickel plated brass frames, but I think there might be some models "in the white". at least Uberti offers such. Meaning that it's a plane carbon steel without any protective finish. Look, you can do whatever you want, just bear in mind that carbon steel rusts easy, especially with that black powder residue combined with water - it's quite corrosive. Bluing offers you some level of protection from that.

    You have three options if you choose to go "in the white":
    1. Leave it as it is after you remove the bluing - with time it will develop an uneven mat grey patina and it will look old, worn out. If that is you goal, then go for it - lots of folks here prefer that "antiqued" look.
    2. Finish it with Zaponlack - requires a professional that knows how to apply such clear coats and has the proper equipment for it. And it will turn yellow with time. This is a nitrocellulose lacquer developed especially for metal preservation.
    3. Treat your revolver with Renaissance wax after every cleaning to protect it from rusting, or oxidizing and do an occasional polishing when the steel starts to develop an oxide layer.

    That advise from Walt Kirst - I would be careful following it if I were you. With a 220 grit sandpaper (FEPA or ANSI - doesn't really matter for that grit) and without at least some basic experience one can butcher that cylinder beyond repair for as little as 5 min. of sanding. Been there, done that. Trust me - it's not that easy to polish good a complex metal surface.
     
  22. 1861

    1861 Member

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    Dear Mizar, I already decided to do nothing, please see the posts #836 and #842 :)
    Thanks for you effort arcticap, Mizar and others, but I'm just too afraid to meddle with it.
     
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