185gr vs 230gr out of a 1911 GM?

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hnm201

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I am shopping for defensive ammo that I can also afford to use as practive ammunition. And I need a lot of practice.

The soon to be daily carry weapon - A springfield milspec 1911A1. I'm planning on keeping it stock, except for a possible extactor swap (for a Ed Brown Hardcore) and extractor tuning.

It seems to me that the 230gr load is commonly recommended load for the 5" barrel. But what about 180gr? 1000 fps vs 810. Am I correct in assuming that 230 gr load is just going to deliver more energy to the target? By how much?

During my first range session with the milspec I put 50 rds of 185gr WWB and 150rds of 230 gr WWB through the gun. I liked the way the 185 shot *much* better. I shot tighter groups with it. If I can shoot more accurately and more quickly with a 185gr load doesn't that offer a defensive advantage over a heavier load?

Georgia Arms sells a 185 gr JHP rd for $205 per 1,000 + shipping. They're in Georgia and I am in KY so shipping should be reasonable along the Dixie Highway. And the Ammo is made in America by a small (relatively) manufacturer. That appeals to me.

What do you think?
 
Just my opinion, but 230gr is the round the 1911 was built for and what its reputation was built on. No reason to mess with that unless something can be proven otherwise. The good thing about a 230gr hollow point is that, even if it doesn't expand you have the full weight of a heavy slug hitting your opponent.

On the other hand, if your shooting is noticeably better with the 185gr then that's a good reason in itself. Even a 230gr bullet is of no use if it's merely sailing over your target.
 
Why did you like the 185 gr ammo better? Was recoil a problem with the 230 gr ammo? Some guns just shoot some brands/types/weights of ammo better than others. If recoil isn't an issue, I'd suggest trying some other ammo besides WWB. I shoot WWB 230gr JHP's in my Kimber and use them for CCW but YMMV. Good Luck.
P.S. I'm in Lexington. Where in Ky are you?
 
Sorry dsk :( , don't hate me... original hardball load was 200gr. but then the army shifted to 234gr., somehow it ended up an even 230gr.

BTW 230 gr is my choice also..... along with 7rd mags.
 
Don't forget that just because the bullet weight is the same that doesn't mean the ammo will shoot the same.

Powder charge and bullet type play a much bigger role.

Use cheap ammo for general practice but shoot enough of the ammo you bet your assets on to know what exactly they will do.

I probably shoot 50 rounds of WWB 230 ball for every round of BMA ammo I shoot. And I always shoot the BMA ammo last at a range session.
 
Sorry dsk , don't hate me... original hardball load was 200gr. but then the army shifted to 234gr., somehow it ended up an even 230gr.

BTW 230 gr is my choice also..... along with 7rd mags.
Click to expand...

I am wrong, the change from 200gr. to 234gr. to 230gr. all took place between 1905 and 1911, so dsk is right.

Sorry dude :eek:
 
Bluesbear,

Thanks for your input!

but BMA Ammo? :confused: I don't know what this is.

Yes, I am looking for a defensive load for my 1911 GM that I can afford to practice with to the tune of 1,000 rd to 2,000 rds per year.

Georgia Arms offers affordable brass cased, american made ammo with JHP bullet designs. After further examination of their menu, I found that they offer a 185 gr JHP load and both a 185 gr and 230 Gr JHP +P load (using Gold Dots) that are affordable enough for me. Again, they don't offer a standard pressure 230gr load with a JHP bullet.

I plan on ordering a few boxes of each from Georgia Arms and see what I shoot best with. If I find that I shoot better with the 185gr loads is there any significant disadvantage to carrying this load for defensive purposes?

I don't plan on shooting 2000 rds of +P ammo out of the gun in a single year.
 
185 v. 230

I shot and carried these guns in harm's way for about 25 years. The 1911 can be a pretty finicky gun, enough so that I think it is a very good idea to stick with the original bullet weight standardized by the military. It may buck a bit more, but the 230 delivers enough recoil impetus to insure that the extractor and ejector get ample opportunity to do their respective jobs- assuming that they're healthy in the first place.

"Dance with the one that brung ya."
 
The idea that you must practice exclusively with your carry ammo is rather silly. Once you establish that your carry ammo works in your gun, you aren't losing anything in terms of training value by practicing with cheaper FMJ that has a similar recoil impule and the same point of impact. And you will save a great deal of money.

Standard pressure 230gr FMJ (cheap in bulk) has the same point of impact and same recoil impulse as standard-pressure 230gr JHPs. So why waste money throwing Gold Dots down range for practice if you can't tell the difference training-wise? Just to be macho?
 
Go with what works best in your pistol. If both 185 grain and 230 grain loads are 100% reliable in your pistol, pick the one that is easiest for you to control.
 
Sean,

I'm not really interested in being macho by throwing gold dots at paper. I have plenty of other venues that I can use to fulfill my need to be macho that are more effective and less expensive.

My intention behind using one ammo for both practice and defense was mostly out of concern for reliability with JHP loads in my Springfield Milspec. Before I start carrying any round I'd like to put at least 500 of them down range without failure. Yes, standard pressure JHPs and FMJs in the same weight from the same manufacturer should hit to roughly the same point of aim. But I'd like to buy from Georgia Arms and for some reason they don't have a standard pressure 230 gr JHP round, only +P.
 
Hmm... you want ammo that the company doesn't sell. Your prospects don't sound so hot.

I'd suggest that if a bullet shape won't feed in your gun , you sure as hell don't need 500 rounds to find it out.
 
Just to throw my two cents in... I've been shooting 1911s as long as I've been shooting any handguns and I've pretty much always practiced with Winchester (or S&B more recently) 230 Gr ball ammo and carried 230 Gr +P Gold Dots or 230 Gr SP GoldenSabers. Before that, I carried HydraShoks. I've never found any of them to significantly change point of impact to 7 yards and if any one of them cycles a 1911 with 100% consistancy, any of the rest of them will as well.

The Gold Dots are known to be some of the most troublesome to feed in some guns though that is mostly the 200 Gr version. The GoldenSabers are probably the smoothest feeding HPs I've ever used in 45 ACP.
 
230/200/185

The one thing to keep in mind about any self-loader is that timing is everything...and particularly with the 1911. Anything that affects the timing
gives a higher chance of a malfunction. Springs...slide mass/weight/...
recoil impulse, etc.

Bang! The round fires. It remains in the barrel for a set amount of time.
While the bullet is still in the barrel, the barrel and slide begin to move
rearward in recoil. If the bullet gets out too soon, full recoil impulse may
not be imposed on the barrel/slide assembly. The lighter bullet also may not impose quite enough "oomph"...and the two factors working together
can...and often does...produce insufficient slide travel. Failures to eject
and bolt-over-base/rideover feeds are the possible result. The 1911 was
designed to accomodate the bullet's dwell time in the barrel, and if we
deviate far from that, we could be inviting trouble. The instances of
functional issues with the light, high-speed bullets tends to agree. Not
with all ammo and all pistols...just a higher degree of problems noted
on average. Some guns will do fine, and others won't. The only way to
know is to buy the ammo and see.

Reducing the recoil spring loading may work...but then the slide smacks the
frame harder...Reducing the bullet's velocity may help...but then the
"oomph" is also reduced, and nothing changes much.

Reducing the mainspring loading will also give the slide a lower path of
resistance...but then we can be rewarded with light primer strikes,
hammer/sear bounce, and increased rearward slide velocity and impact.

Everything that is changed affects something else. In my own experience,
the 230 at 800-850 fps gives the best reliability across the board. For
a higher velocity/lower bullet weight, the 200 at about 925 fps or so is the
best compromise between velocity and reliability...Those ballistics being the
original specs for the cartridge, the system will usually accomodate.

I also feel that this business of killer-diller hollowpoints as a way of making
up for bullet placement is counterproductive. The issue of overpenetration is another case in point. If the hollowpoint fails to expand..and they often do at velocities lower than about 1500 fps...they will actually outpenetrate the FMJ of equal weight due to the higher velocities that they usually produce. Federal 230 Hydra-Shok is a perfect example. This ammo usually clocks somewhere in the 870-890 fps range as opposed to most factory hardball with its 230 at 830 average. (5-inch barrels) Testing in several mediums has borne this out. The unexpanded HS penetrates 3-5 inches farther in ballistic gelatin than PMC or Sellier & Bellot hardball. Note also
that one layer of denim keeps HS from expanding 6 times in 10, and
the expansion is limited in the ones that did open up. They expand
beautifully when passing through one layer of T-shirt material or on
bare gelatin.

Bottom line...You can hope that the hollowpoint will expand as intended,
but it's best not to count on it. It's also best to assume that it will
pass through the target.

Just my nickel's worth...Your mileage may vary.

Tuner
 
SeanSmith said
The idea that you must practice exclusively with your carry ammo is rather silly. Once you establish that your carry ammo works in your gun, you aren't losing anything in terms of training value by practicing with cheaper FMJ that has a similar recoil impule and the same point of impact. And you will save a great deal of money.
Click to expand...

I am in this camp. No reason to send uber expensive rounds into paper for practice. Check the POI with the JHPs every so often, and burn that carry ammo when it is time for replacement. Burning 500 rounds of carry ammo will make the ammo company very happy!:rolleyes:

Another approach I am considering is just riding the FMJ wave. As WildAlaska put it, a bullet is a bullet. That way there is no conflict in practice/carry.
 
There are folks who advocate training with carry ammo to make sure the recoil characteristics are the same when you need to use the gun in defense. I do not believe in that approach. The adrenaline surge during a real world confrontation will greatly change your perception of the recoil anyway.

Another approach I am considering is just riding the FMJ wave.
Click to expand...

I've come to that conclusion a while ago. Old Slabsides was designed to work with a 230gr. FMJ bullet, and that's what I use in my 1911s. Every 1911 that's been properly put together will run 100% with ball ammo, and I'll gladly trade the possible expansion of a JHP for the inherently more reliable feeding of hardball. To put a spin on another saying: a JHP may expand, but an FMJ isnt't going to shrink...and it'll give you a reliability advantage 100% of the time, even in guns that usually feed JHP without issues.
 
In my home 1911 gov't, I shoot 230gr. FMJ hardball! I do not worry too much about over penetration. The hardball is totally reliable and a great feeder.

Re: my CCW, I carry Gold Dot 125gr. 357 Sig JHP. I'm outside of the house with this.
 
and it'll give you a reliability advantage 100% of the time, even in guns that usually feed JHP without issues.
Click to expand...

And for those of us with 100% reliability with hollowpoints... would we be 150% reliable with ball? ;)

I'd suggest that the assumption that hollow points are per se a reliability detriment is just that... an assumption. If my gun runs perfectly well with hollowpoints, the notion that it would run "more perfectly well" with some other kind of ammo is rather silly.

To put a spin on another saying: a JHP may expand, but an FMJ isnt't going to shrink
Click to expand...

Well, JHPs don't shrink either. The worst-case terminal effect for a JHP is the most common outcome with FMJ. Hardly a ringing endorsement of hardball. :p
 
The worst-case terminal effect for a JHP is the most common outcome with FMJ. Hardly a ringing endorsement of hardball.
Click to expand...

Actually, there are several other "worst case terminal effects" with JHPs. A JHP may fragment, for example, or fail to penetrate deeply enough to reach the vitals after expansion. FMJ bullets will always penetrate to the maximum of the caliber's capabilities, and there are quite a few folks around who think that penetration is more important than expansion.

Both my carry 1911s are 100% reliable with JHPs, by the way. However, they both cycle hardball more smooth than they do JHPs, and the feed ramp doesn't suffer any impacts from the sharp corner of JHP bullets. The added feed-friendliness and feed ramp saving characteristics of the FMJ may make a difference between a proper feed and an FTF some day.

But that's just personal preference...if you're more comfortable with JHPs, more power to you.
 
I prefer 230gr HP in a government model or commander. That 185 gr stuff might have a point in the shorty 1911s, but I really prefer not to go less than a 4" barrel in a 45. Watch-Six
 
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